Protecting oneself

[88V8]

Two thoughts:

First, masks.
Vanity prompted me to look beyond the usual blue disposables.
OK vanity, silly.

We bought a pack of 3-layer, seemed fine until we put them on.... no nose clips.
Air will always take the line of least resistance, and with no clip, it will just exit and enter around the nose. Very little will be trapped by the mask.
Pretty well useless.
So it's back to the blue masks for me.

Second, ventilation.
We went to Devon for the Christmas break, three nights. Tier 2 to Tier 2, if you were wondering.
A country house hotel where we've been before and know it's well run.
We booked ten months ago, but before deciding to go I had a discussion with the manager about ventilatioon.

For me, once one is indoors, hands face space become far less relevant. What matters is ventilation.
As you may know, in still air the virus can hang around like smoke on a summer’s day. No good social distancing if you’re in a soup of virus.

The message I believe, is simple:
Do not sit in unventilated rooms.
Open the door. Open a window just a little, and an upstairs window to make a nice through-flow.
If there is a gathering in the house, crack open a window in every room and keep the doors open.
And not just for five minutes once a day. Keep them open.
And when you draw the curtains, don’t cover the open windows.
If you have an extractor fan, leave it on.
Draught? No, that’s ventilation that will keep you alive.
Chilly? Wear a woolly.

The hotel took the point. On arrival the front door was wide open. And our table in the dining room was right by a window, we opened the window for every meal. Plus there was a wood stove in the room and at breakfast when that was not alight, en extractor fan.
We sat, safely, in a steady breeze.

At home, our draughty cottage and two wood burners keep us safe.

So I commend this to you - hands face space ventilate.

Your thoughts?

V8

[Clariman]

Ventilation is hugely important indoors, but even with ventilation I still would not go anywhere near anyone else indoors. Especially with the new variant and the currently increasing prevalence.

There is a very limited number of people I have been indoors with and even then I minimise the time.

Clariman

[Newroad]

Hi 88V8.

What you say is all quite sensible, but I wouldn't get too fixated on the detail of the masks.

My understanding is that non-surgical grade masks are predominantly about protecting other people - stopping dispersion of larger droplets etc. It's absolutely right to wear them (and wear them properly, i.e. covering mouth and nose) - but the reasons are

In case you have the virus, and/or
To encourage others to do the same, in case they have it

Regards, Newroad

PS I'm speaking as someone who's just had it - see related thread

[UncleEbenezer]

I'm beginning to think covid could leave a fantastic legacy - if it prompts TPTB and society to wake up to the necessity of decent ventilation and let us have it.

Especially when the alternative is sealed indoors where stuffiness causes the metabolism to go into a minimal state, causing the body to feel cold (so you need to heat the place much warmer than is reasonable) and to lose its ability to fight off any bugs floating around.

What's a nose clip?

[PinkDalek]

What's a nose clip?

The OP means the adjustable integrated metallic part at the top of the surgical type masks, aka nose wires/bridges. Not a clip in that sense but I have a feeling you knew that already.

[UncleEbenezer]

What's a nose clip?

The OP means the adjustable integrated metallic part at the top of the surgical type masks, aka nose wires/bridges. Not a clip in that sense but I have a feeling you knew that already.

I'm still none the wiser, not having seen any mask with metal bits in it (is it anything like the metal bits in some bras, that some women seem to hate?)

Neither - I daresay - are vast numbers of the population now wearing the germ-incubators-and-spreaders.

[PinkDalek]

I forgot your oft repeated position on face masks.

See, for example, a random link https://www.grainger.com/product/ALPHA-PROTECH-Procedural-Mask-29DZ42 which includes Nosepiece Type Metal Nose Clip and the second image where the clip has been pressed in both sides of the bridge of the nose to fit slightly more snugly.

[moorfield]

We went to Devon for the Christmas break, three nights.

....

Your thoughts?

Stay at home

[dealtn]

I'm beginning to think covid could leave a fantastic legacy - if it prompts TPTB and society to wake up to the necessity of decent ventilation and let us have it.

Especially when the alternative is sealed indoors where stuffiness causes the metabolism to go into a minimal state, causing the body to feel cold (so you need to heat the place much warmer than is reasonable) and to lose its ability to fight off any bugs floating around.

I really wouldn't want, or expect, to have ventilation such as open windows when eating an indoor meal. Particularly so outside of a short "summer window".

I have no problem eating outdoors, if that is what I choose.

Indoors though if windows were open and I was uncomfortable with the temperature, or its effect on hot food, I would happily leave, and not return, if I wasn't able to close the window.

Not obvious to me which of our views is the more reasonable.

[Mike4]

We went to Devon for the Christmas break, three nights.

....

Your thoughts?

Stay at home

^^^Yes, this^^^

it's simply astounding, isn't it? Why do people find this so difficult?

[Dod101]

The hotel took the point. On arrival the front door was wide open. And our table in the dining room was right by a window, we opened the window for every meal. Plus there was a wood stove in the room and at breakfast when that was not alight, en extractor fan.
We sat, safely, in a steady breeze.

At home, our draughty cottage and two wood burners keep us safe.

So I commend this to you - hands face space ventilate.

Your thoughts?

V8

The wood burners will probably do you more harm than the virus judging by the particulates they spread around.

Dod

[Mike4]

The hotel took the point. On arrival the front door was wide open. And our table in the dining room was right by a window, we opened the window for every meal. Plus there was a wood stove in the room and at breakfast when that was not alight, en extractor fan.
We sat, safely, in a steady breeze.

At home, our draughty cottage and two wood burners keep us safe.

So I commend this to you - hands face space ventilate.

Your thoughts?

V8

The wood burners will probably do you more harm than the virus judging by the particulates they spread around.

Dod

Yes and totally self-inflicted. The OP did not need to go the hotel in Devon in the first place.

And swerving off at a tangent, does anyone else feel like grabbing business proprietors, school heads etc warmly by the throat and shaking them when they claim they have made their premises "COVID SECURE"?

Honestly, they all must have degrees in kidding themselves. There is no such thing (except perhaps in a few carefully designed research and testing laboratories).

[johnhemming]

So I commend this to you - hands face space ventilate.

Your thoughts?

I think the most important thing is to do what you can to ensure your immune system is up to scratch. There will be limitations, but that is worthwhile.

I think I had the virus last April and am not particularly worried about it now even though I wasn't tested then. I am 60 so younger than many on this forums, but still in the more vulnerable category.

If I were making particular efforts not to be infected I think my concern would primarily be to avoid breathing the air in which there are virus particles. Strictly that is not about standing any distance from people, but not for example walking through air in which there may be virus particles. That is difficult to achieve in a supermarket so I would probably order delivered goods. I am not sure I would be visiting any other buildings that other people were in regardless of ventilation. I would assume outside is mainly OK, however. I would, however, not walk in someone else's trail unless quite a long way away (much more than 2m)

[Dod101]

The OP did not need to go the hotel in Devon in the first place.

And swerving off at a tangent, does anyone else feel like grabbing business proprietors, school heads etc warmly by the throat and shaking them when they claim they have made their premises "COVID SECURE"?

Honestly, they all must have degrees in kidding themselves. There is no such thing (except perhaps in a few carefully designed research and testing laboratories).

I can understand people wanting a change of scene and if they want to take the added risks to their own lives so be it, but unfortunately it is not just their health that they are risking, it is also others'. And moving from Tier 2 to Tier 2 is, rather like those COVID SECURE premises, indulging in some kidology, especially in that much of England and all of the Scottish Mainland suddenly went into Tier 4 during the Christmas period.

We all I think have a duty, not just to protect ourselves, but a duty to protect the rest of society as best we can as well. It seems to me that that is why it is so self indulgent to do what the OP describes.

Dod

[richfool]

The OP and others may find this enlightening. I did. Do follow it beyond the obvious stuff near the start and it goes on to show how airborne (aerosol) transmission can occur in rooms.

That doesn't cover contact transmission such as from door handles, chair backs, table edges, crockery, cutlery, etc, which must also be relevant.

https://english.elpais.com/society/2020 ... e-air.html

I do know of distant family of my daughter's in laws, who attended a birthday party back in November. Ten of them in a large room together. Eight of the ten subsequently tested positive for coronavirus.

[dealtn]

I can understand people wanting a change of scene and if they want to take the added risks to their own lives so be it, but unfortunately it is not just their health that they are risking, it is also others'. And moving from Tier 2 to Tier 2 is, rather like those COVID SECURE premises, indulging in some kidology, especially in that much of England and all of the Scottish Mainland suddenly went into Tier 4 during the Christmas period.

To be fair the OP did title the thread "Protecting Oneself", so at least gave the clue what to expect with respect to what was to follow.

[sg31]

Two thoughts:


Second, ventilation.
We went to Devon for the Christmas break, three nights. Tier 2 to Tier 2, if you were wondering.
A country house hotel where we've been before and know it's well run.
We booked ten months ago, but before deciding to go I had a discussion with the manager about ventilatioon.

For me, once one is indoors, hands face space become far less relevant. What matters is ventilation.
As you may know, in still air the virus can hang around like smoke on a summer’s day. No good social distancing if you’re in a soup of virus.

The message I believe, is simple:
Do not sit in unventilated rooms.
Open the door. Open a window just a little, and an upstairs window to make a nice through-flow.
If there is a gathering in the house, crack open a window in every room and keep the doors open.
And not just for five minutes once a day. Keep them open.
And when you draw the curtains, don’t cover the open windows.
If you have an extractor fan, leave it on.
Draught? No, that’s ventilation that will keep you alive.
Chilly? Wear a woolly.

The hotel took the point. On arrival the front door was wide open. And our table in the dining room was right by a window, we opened the window for every meal. Plus there was a wood stove in the room and at breakfast when that was not alight, en extractor fan.
We sat, safely, in a steady breeze.V8

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-wor ... _inset_1.1

Infected after 5 minutes, from 20 feet away: South Korea study shows coronavirus’s spread indoors


Linsey Marr, a civil and environmental engineering professor at Virginia Tech who studies the transmission of viruses in the air, said the five-minute window in which the student, identified in the study as “A,” was infected was notable because the droplet was large enough to carry a viral load, but small enough to travel 20 feet through the air.

“‘A’ had to get a large dose in just five minutes, provided by larger aerosols probably about 50 microns,” she said. “Large aerosols or small droplets overlapping in that gray area can transmit disease further than one or two meters [3.3 to 6.6 feet] if you have strong airflow.”

[Dod101]

OTOH, we have to live as well and it is a bit like asking a scientist what we should do about all those deaths from motoring. The answer of course would be to restrict cars to 15 mph max.

If we all followed all the advice, society would just seize up. There needs to be a balance. It is finding where that should be that is the tricky bit.

Dod

[AsleepInYorkshire]

OTOH, we have to live as well and it is a bit like asking a scientist what we should do about all those deaths from motoring. The answer of course would be to restrict cars to 15 mph max.

If we all followed all the advice, society would just seize up. There needs to be a balance. It is finding where that should be that is the tricky bit.

Dod

And augmenting that point if I may please that many in our society will always be able to evaluate after events, never before. Which is easy. As you point out we do have to find the balance and I don't envy Boris, his team, the medical consultants and the NHS currently. It is an extremely difficult task. Not helped by a minority who cannot join in with some short term restrictions for the benefit of all.

AiY

[johnhemming]

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-wor ... _inset_1.1

Infected after 5 minutes, from 20 feet away: South Korea study shows coronavirus’s spread indoors


Linsey Marr, a civil and environmental engineering professor at Virginia Tech who studies the transmission of viruses in the air, said the five-minute window in which the student, identified in the study as “A,” was infected was notable because the droplet was large enough to carry a viral load, but small enough to travel 20 feet through the air.

“‘A’ had to get a large dose in just five minutes, provided by larger aerosols probably about 50 microns,” she said. “Large aerosols or small droplets overlapping in that gray area can transmit disease further than one or two meters [3.3 to 6.6 feet] if you have strong airflow.”

That's a useful link thank you. I wonder, however, what happens with the sub micron particles. If you get enough of those can you get infected?