The Lemon Fool

Itsallaguess wrote:

nimnarb wrote:
How is Southgate going to improve us?

Serious question?

So that we do end up winning something?

One of the problems of comparing Southgate to previous England managers is that often such comparisons will miss the hugely important work he did at the England youth level before he stepped up into the senior England manager role. He spent three years setting the ground-work that's enabled England to now properly compete with a large senior squad that looks as happy and cohesive as any I've seen in my lifetime, even before we start to talk about the great skill-sets he's got available...

Anyone who remembers all the previous cliques regarding England camps at tournaments will appreciate how difficult that is to consistently achieve at the top level of the game...

Even beyond that though, and sticking to senior England results under Southgate, I think this statistic from the BBC yesterday might surprise some of his critics -

Southgate has won 49 of his 81 games in charge so far, losing 14.

But his record of winning six knockout games in major tournaments as Three Lions boss is the same number as England had won in the 48 years before he took the helm.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/63943512

Given the recent discussions around Southgate continuing in the England manager role, I'd perhaps suggest that even beyond that brilliant final statistic above, his single biggest achievement has actually been in getting this England squad to the point where people are even really *asking* if we can take that extra important step towards silverware.

Before Southgate, we were generally so poor during any important knock-out stages that no-one even bothered to ask the question...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Leothebear wrote:

Itsallaguess wrote:
Anyone who remembers all the previous cliques regarding England camps at tournaments will appreciate how difficult that is to consistently achieve at the top level of the game...

Even beyond that though, and sticking to senior England results under Southgate, I think this statistic from the BBC yesterday might surprise some of his critics -

Southgate has won 49 of his 81 games in charge so far, losing 14.

But his record of winning six knockout games in major tournaments as Three Lions boss is the same number as England had won in the 48 years before he took the helm.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/63943512

Given the recent discussions around Southgate continuing in the England manager role, I'd perhaps suggest that even beyond that brilliant final statistic above, his single biggest achievement has actually been in getting this England squad to the point where people are even really *asking* if we can take that extra important step towards silverware.

Before Southgate, we were generally so poor during any important knock-out stages that no-one even bothered to ask the question...

A couple of points. How many of those 6 knockout games were against top 5 nations?

When you consider the records of France, Spain, Italy, Germany, Croatia, The Netherlands, Belgium and perhaps Portugal, who I think have more than 6 wins in KO games

What's their secret?

Leothebear wrote:A couple of points. How many of those 6 knockout games were against top 5 nations?

When you consider the records of France, Spain, Italy, Germany, Croatia, The Netherlands, Belgium and perhaps Portugal, who I think have more than 6 wins in KO games What's their secret? I suspect 6 wins puts in a group with the likes of Sweden, Denmark, and perhaps Poland.

The sad fact is England do OK in tournaments until they come up against class sides.

dealtn wrote:

Leothebear wrote:A couple of points. How many of those 6 knockout games were against top 5 nations?

When you consider the records of France, Spain, Italy, Germany, Croatia, The Netherlands, Belgium and perhaps Portugal, who I think have more than 6 wins in KO games What's their secret? I suspect 6 wins puts in a group with the likes of Sweden, Denmark, and perhaps Poland.

The sad fact is England do OK in tournaments until they come up against class sides.

So here is the perspective you are looking for.

Under Gareth Southgate England have reached 3 finals tournaments and reached the knock out stages of all 3. Thats the 2018 World Cup, the 2020 Euros and the 2022 World Cup. The record in those knockouts is 6 wins and 1 draw.

So of all the countries mentioned how does that compare?

France 8W + 1D
Spain 1W + 4D
Italy 2W + 2D
Germany (astonishingly?) 0W + 0D
Croatia 1W + 3D
Netherlands 1W + 1D
Belgium 3W + 0D
Portugal 1W + 0D

I'm not sure you want to be looking too hard amongst that peer group for "their secret"

We seem to be peculiaraly good in this country at denigrating (perceived lack of) success.

Leothebear wrote:

dealtn wrote:

Leothebear wrote:A couple of points. How many of those 6 knockout games were against top 5 nations?

When you consider the records of France, Spain, Italy, Germany, Croatia, The Netherlands, Belgium and perhaps Portugal, who I think have more than 6 wins in KO games What's their secret? I suspect 6 wins puts in a group with the likes of Sweden, Denmark, and perhaps Poland.

The sad fact is England do OK in tournaments until they come up against class sides.

So here is the perspective you are looking for.

Under Gareth Southgate England have reached 3 finals tournaments and reached the knock out stages of all 3. Thats the 2018 World Cup, the 2020 Euros and the 2022 World Cup. The record in those knockouts is 6 wins and 1 draw.

So of all the countries mentioned how does that compare?

France 8W + 1D
Spain 1W + 4D
Italy 2W + 2D
Germany (astonishingly?) 0W + 0D
Croatia 1W + 3D
Netherlands 1W + 1D
Belgium 3W + 0D
Portugal 1W + 0D

I'm not sure you want to be looking too hard amongst that peer group for "their secret"

We seem to be peculiaraly good in this country at denigrating (perceived lack of) success.

OK I wasn't necessarily making the comparison over the last 3 tournaments more like the last 10 years. But fair enough the last 3 tournaments GS's record appears good.
Look a little closer:
3 of those wins came in 2020 Euros - held in England with England getting a rather easy group. England beat Ukraine, Denmark and a very out of sorts Germany.

2 wins in WC2018 - Columbia, Sweden.

1 win in WC2022 - Senegal.

Out of that lot only Germany would be considered top drawyer but have since been shown to be in the doldrums.

The tournaments ended for England with defeats to Croatia, Italy and France.

At the highest level England still fail.

I'm not advocating GS goes because I cannot see anyone else doing any better.

Leothebear wrote:Let's make this simple. England have won zilch in 56 years.

Is England as a nation with the Premier League, considered the best on the planet, punching above or below their weight?

Leothebear wrote:Let's make this simple. England have won zilch in 56 years.

Is England as a nation with the Premier League, considered the best on the planet, punching above or below their weight?

Leothebear wrote:Let's make this simple. England have won zilch in 56 years.

Is England as a nation with the Premier League, considered the best on the planet, punching above or below their weight?

Leothebear wrote:Let's make this simple. England have won zilch in 56 years.

Is England as a nation with the Premier League, considered the best on the planet, punching above or below their weight?

dealtn wrote:

Leothebear wrote:Let's make this simple. England have won zilch in 56 years.

Is England as a nation with the Premier League, considered the best on the planet, punching above or below their weight?

First sentence is in the past tense, the second sentence, and question is in the present tense.

In the last 10 years England have punched above their weight and tournament results are higher than most in what would be considered the peer group of similar nations.

Leothebear wrote:The PL has nothing to do with international football.

Other this is where most English players ply their trade, competing against or playing with some of the world's best.

BobbyD wrote:

Leothebear wrote:The PL has nothing to do with international football.

Other this is where most English players ply their trade, competing against or playing with some of the world's best.

...because that's where the money is. The world is small enough these days that if the money were still in the Italian or Spanish game even the better English players would travel, and the best foreign players would already not be here...

Leothebear wrote:I simply mean that most of England's players are in the PL which, it is said, is the best in the world, so they should be used to playing at the apex of world football. To my eyes England's players cannot match the skills of the very best. I'd agree with an earlier post stating England are top 8. Perhaps that's the best we can hope for.

It's the hope that kills you - I'll remember that for the Euros

Tedx wrote:....and onwards to North America

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64032538

Huge geography, excellent infrastructure, many more teams and large capacity stadiums that are already built.

I read elsewhere that the last US world cup was one of the cheapest (and best in my opinion) ever because of the stadiums already in place and getting around North America is pretty easy I think.

48 teams though. Seems like the Scotland lobbying group was successful.

Tedx wrote:....and onwards to North America

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64032538

Huge geography, excellent infrastructure, many more teams and large capacity stadiums that are already built.

I read elsewhere that the last US world cup was one of the cheapest (and best in my opinion) ever because of the stadiums already in place and getting around North America is pretty easy I think.

48 teams though. Seems like the Scotland lobbying group was successful.