Difference in colleges: London, Oxford, Cambridge?

[didds]

Incidentally, one of my friends did nothing for his 4th year and was awarded 4th class honours, unprecedented for some years, I believe.

TJH

I was told that one of my Comp Sci lecturers got a 4th from oxford.

[Lootman]

Incidentally, one of my friends did nothing for his 4th year and was awarded 4th class honours, unprecedented for some years, I believe.

I was told that one of my Comp Sci lecturers got a 4th from oxford.

Some universities will award a degree below a 3rd. But rather than call it a 4th (with honours) it is called an "ordinary" or "pass" degree, without honours.

Given that "honours" doesn't have any formal meaning that I know of, the difference may be moot.

[tjh290633]

I was told that one of my Comp Sci lecturers got a 4th from oxford.

Some universities will award a degree below a 3rd. But rather than call it a 4th (with honours) it is called an "ordinary" or "pass" degree, without honours.

Given that "honours" doesn't have any formal meaning that I know of, the difference may be moot.

In those days, I can recall the following in the class lists:

"Failed to satisfy the examiners in the honours school but satisfied the examiners in the Pass School ".

And

"Satisfied the examiners but over standing for Honours"

Those as I understood it ranked respectively 6th and 5th below the 4th. Note that Class 2 was not subdivided at that time.

Note that my friend had been "adjusted worthy of honours" on the final examination, so the 4th was the only possible class.

TJH

[GoSeigen]

After A levels with top results I was an underachiever focussed on enjoying university, earning a disappointing third class degree. I consoled myself with the thought that there were a handful of "pass" students below me and also some "fails"... and then maybe 30% of the cohort had dropped out, so I didn't do so badly after all...

I always stated (truthfully) on my CV that I had an honours degree. One of my bosses made a point of only employing Oxbridge or first class and 2/1 candidates, so he clearly had not made a careful enquiry into my dissolute past!


GS

[Newroad]

Morning All.

This thread has had me searching for a quote I (very annoyingly) seem unable to find, from either "Yes Minister" or "Yes Prime Minster".

I think that the discussion happens between Sir Humphrey and someone else (but not Hacker) and could quite possibly be about discussing moving/touring the National Opera or National Theatre (away from Covent Garden?). Sir Humphrey is somewhere between annoyed and horrified, and says something like

"What will be next, the universities? Both of them?"

I could be wrong though - or conflating episodes

Regards, Newroad

[Hallucigenia]

My own Cambridge letters include the relatively-unusual MMath on top of the BA and MA.

Heh, missed that one, at one point I was offered the opportunity to be MA MSc MPhil.... Master of all trades, jack of none.

Morning All.

This thread has had me searching for a quote I (very annoyingly) seem unable to find, from either "Yes Minister" or "Yes Prime Minster".

I think that the discussion happens between Sir Humphrey and someone else (but not Hacker) and could quite possibly be about discussing moving/touring the National Opera or National Theatre (away from Covent Garden?). Sir Humphrey is somewhere between annoyed and horrified, and says something like

"What will be next, the universities? Both of them?"

In YPM, ‘Power to the People’, Bernard couldn't see what was wrong with devolving decisions down to local government :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=127&v=gmOvEwtDycs

[Newroad]

Thanks, Hallucigenia.

Much appreciated

I wasn't too far off - the opera was indeed mentioned - but it wasn't the episode whether the National Opera/Theatre was threatened with losing it's home.

Regards, Newroad

[Loup321]

Degrees are no longer awarded by the University of London, but instead by the individual Universities. Back in 2001, all Doctoral degrees were from the University of London, but 2008 was during the transition and candidates could choose. Since about 2010 it's all been from the individual Universities. I believe undergraduate degrees switched earlier, but I did mine elsewhere.

I suspect your experience is with Imperial?

Imperial was always the cuckoo in the nest, that wanted to become a university before any of the other colleges. So it broke free in ?2007? from memory and became an independent, degree-awarding university. The same privilege was offered to all the other colleges by the University of London Act 2018 but not all of them have taken up the option, and I think it was one of those things where actual implementation got held up by Covid-19.

Actually, it was UCL. From your comments, and my memory of the proposed UCL/Imperial merger, maybe they were both trying to break free at the same time. The merger that was described by my head of department as "spherically a bad idea" - no matter which way you looked at it, it was a bad idea. But we still had the discuss it and have joint meetings with our counterpart department at Imperial.

UCL have taken a few smaller colleges in. Perhaps because they were too small to want to change, but too specialist and well established to want to close. The disparity in systems is mind-blowing! And no one will change "because we've always done it this way" so we have people dragging their feet over making the university more efficient.

[kltrader]

Oxford and Cambridge are compared separately because they have a unique collegiate structure with individual colleges, unlike the more centralized setup of many London universities. This affects the student experience and how they're perceived in league tables.

[stewamax]

My own Cambridge letters include the relatively-unusual MMath on top of the BA and MA.

Heh, missed that one, at one point I was offered the opportunity to be MA MSc MPhil.... Master of all trades, jack of none.

When - a loooong time ago - I was a postgrad at Cambridge with an MSc from elsewhere under my belt, it was before the days when it was normal for subject-specific Masters degrees (like UncleEbenezer's MMath) to be awarded and MPhils were unusual (I never met one). I was taking a one-year postgrad Diploma course that would now be an MPhil, but to my long-term deep despair, chagrin and almost-terminal despondency - perhaps felt also by Hallucigenia - could never use the nicely symmetric post-nominal letters MSc, MPhil

[stevensfo]

I suspect your experience is with Imperial?

Imperial was always the cuckoo in the nest, that wanted to become a university before any of the other colleges. So it broke free in ?2007? from memory and became an independent, degree-awarding university. The same privilege was offered to all the other colleges by the University of London Act 2018 but not all of them have taken up the option, and I think it was one of those things where actual implementation got held up by Covid-19.

Actually, it was UCL. From your comments, and my memory of the proposed UCL/Imperial merger, maybe they were both trying to break free at the same time. The merger that was described by my head of department as "spherically a bad idea" - no matter which way you looked at it, it was a bad idea. But we still had the discuss it and have joint meetings with our counterpart department at Imperial.

UCL have taken a few smaller colleges in. Perhaps because they were too small to want to change, but too specialist and well established to want to close. The disparity in systems is mind-blowing! And no one will change "because we've always done it this way" so we have people dragging their feet over making the university more efficient.

You may be right. Our eldest is just finishing at UCL but has a good friend who went to Imperial. It seems that there is fierce competition between them. I have to favour UCL cos it was so close to Birkbeck, where I did my MSc and Senate house, and their libraries were much better!

Steve

[stevensfo]

Thanks, Hallucigenia.

Much appreciated

I wasn't too far off - the opera was indeed mentioned - but it wasn't the episode whether the National Opera/Theatre was threatened with losing it's home.

Regards, Newroad

Do bear in mind that, a bit later, all those episodes were edited and re-done for radio. The mp3 episodes are not the same and have different actors playing the minor roles. I think that the Opera was mentioned in quite a few.

Steve

PS My favourite has to be the hospital with no doctors. I actually know admin people like Sir Humphrey!

[Newroad]

Hi stevensfo.

There is so much good stuff - probably the best comedy writing of all time (though Porridge on occasion and some but not all of Gerald Wiley's stuff might give it a shake). I think it was more a case of discouraging patients rather than doctors in the one you are referring to - but certainly a good one.

I was always a fan of Sir Desmond Glaisebrook whenever he appeared.

As for one liners so to speak, then one where Bernard comes out from a meeting between Sir Arnold and Sir Humphrey and tells Hacker something like

"It was absolutely brutal in there. Sir Arnold told Sir Humphrey he wasn't actually officially reprimanding him!"

Regards, Newroad

[Hallucigenia]

Actually, it was UCL. From your comments, and my memory of the proposed UCL/Imperial merger, maybe they were both trying to break free at the same time. The merger that was described by my head of department as "spherically a bad idea" - no matter which way you looked at it, it was a bad idea. But we still had the discuss it and have joint meetings with our counterpart department at Imperial.

UCL have taken a few smaller colleges in. Perhaps because they were too small to want to change, but too specialist and well established to want to close. The disparity in systems is mind-blowing! And no one will change "because we've always done it this way" so we have people dragging their feet over making the university more efficient.

This suggests the UCL/Imperial thing was a little earlier, 2002. That was at the height of Richard Sykes' merger mania - he had overseen the mergers of Glaxo with Wellcome and then SKB before going to Imperial. Part of the driver was Imperial seeing that funding was moving from physics and engineering to biology and medicine - hence taking over medical schools. But things were tough for smaller science-led institutions in the early years of Blair - funding formulas took less account of the higher costs of science vs arts, so they were under pressure to find economies of scale.

So I suspect some of UCL's takeovers were following in Imperial's lead. I think Sykes was very keen to break out of the UoL structure, and maybe needed UCL to also want university status to act as cover even if they weren't as keen.

[csearle]

I was told that one of my Comp Sci lecturers got a 4th from oxford.

Some universities will award a degree below a 3rd. But rather than call it a 4th (with honours) it is called an "ordinary" or "pass" degree, without honours.

Given that "honours" doesn't have any formal meaning that I know of, the difference may be moot.

I was awarded an "honours" from Plymouth. In my case I feel it meant a huge difference from those without it. Those that were demoted to something below the honours level were (IMO) deutlich lazier than me!

Chris

[UncleEbenezer]

I was awarded an "honours" from Plymouth.
Chris

CNAA, or are you on the young side for a Fool, with a degree from the mid-90s or later?

[csearle]

I was awarded an "honours" from Plymouth.
Chris

CNAA, or are you on the young side for a Fool, with a degree from the mid-90s or later?

CNAA.

I spent 17 years working in Germany as an engineer. Met some talented people but rarely, if ever, felt out of my depth.

[stevensfo]

Hi stevensfo.

There is so much good stuff - probably the best comedy writing of all time (though Porridge on occasion and some but not all of Gerald Wiley's stuff might give it a shake). I think it was more a case of discouraging patients rather than doctors in the one you are referring to - but certainly a good one.

I was always a fan of Sir Desmond Glaisebrook whenever he appeared.

As for one liners so to speak, then one where Bernard comes out from a meeting between Sir Arnold and Sir Humphrey and tells Hacker something like

"It was absolutely brutal in there. Sir Arnold told Sir Humphrey he wasn't actually officially reprimanding him!"

Regards, Newroad

I was always a fan of Sir Desmond Glaisebrook whenever he appeared.

Was he the banker that always made fraud and corruption sound like a naughty boy prank?

"Well, if a chap has been caught siphoning off funds, then one of the other chaps will have to take the chap out to lunch."




Steve

PS How times have changed.

[Newroad]

Hi stevensfo.

Yes, he's the one (though I may have mis-spelled his name - it appears to have been Glazebrook). Here's one along your theme from him

Sir Desmond Glazebrook: They've broken the rules.

Sir Humphrey: What, you mean the insider trading regulations?

Sir Desmond Glazebrook: No.

Sir Humphrey: Oh. Well, that's one relief.

Sir Desmond Glazebrook: I mean of course they've broken those, but they've broken the basic rule of the City.

Sir Humphrey: I didn't know there were any?

Sir Desmond Glazebrook: Just the one. If you're incompetent you have to be honest, and if you're crooked you have to be clever. See, if you're honest, then when you make a pig's breakfast of things the chaps rally round and help you out.

Sir Humphrey: If you're crooked?

Sir Desmond Glazebrook: Well, if you're making good profits for them, chaps don't start asking questions; they're not stupid. Well, not that stupid.

Sir Humphrey: So the ideal is a firm which is honest and clever.

Sir Desmond Glazebrook: Yes. Let me know if you ever come across one, won't you?

I rather like this one too

Sir Humphrey Appleby: Didn't you read the Financial Times this morning?

Sir Desmond Glazebrook: Never do.

Sir Humphrey Appleby: Well you're a banker, surely you read the Financial Times?

Sir Desmond Glazebrook: Can't understand it. Full of economic theory.

Sir Humphrey Appleby: Why do you buy it?

Sir Desmond Glazebrook: Oh, you know, it's part of the uniform.

Great stuff

Regards, Newroad

[stevensfo]

Hi stevensfo.

Yes, he's the one (though I may have mis-spelled his name - it appears to have been Glazebrook). Here's one along your theme from him

Sir Desmond Glazebrook: They've broken the rules.

Sir Humphrey: What, you mean the insider trading regulations?

Sir Desmond Glazebrook: No.

Sir Humphrey: Oh. Well, that's one relief.

Sir Desmond Glazebrook: I mean of course they've broken those, but they've broken the basic rule of the City.

Sir Humphrey: I didn't know there were any?

Sir Desmond Glazebrook: Just the one. If you're incompetent you have to be honest, and if you're crooked you have to be clever. See, if you're honest, then when you make a pig's breakfast of things the chaps rally round and help you out.

Sir Humphrey: If you're crooked?

Sir Desmond Glazebrook: Well, if you're making good profits for them, chaps don't start asking questions; they're not stupid. Well, not that stupid.

Sir Humphrey: So the ideal is a firm which is honest and clever.

Sir Desmond Glazebrook: Yes. Let me know if you ever come across one, won't you?

I rather like this one too

Sir Humphrey Appleby: Didn't you read the Financial Times this morning?

Sir Desmond Glazebrook: Never do.

Sir Humphrey Appleby: Well you're a banker, surely you read the Financial Times?

Sir Desmond Glazebrook: Can't understand it. Full of economic theory.

Sir Humphrey Appleby: Why do you buy it?

Sir Desmond Glazebrook: Oh, you know, it's part of the uniform.

Great stuff

Regards, Newroad

Yes, I have all those as mp3s or recordings of the TV shows.

Apparently, Margaret Thatcher, a Biochemist like me, said that it was true to life. What is a bit sad is the fact that all those Minister/PM episodes show us that nothing has changed. What is revealed to the tabloids etc is kept under strict control!

Steve