DIY Lease Extension?

[mc2fool]

I live in a small block of six flats of which I am the owner-occupier of one. The block was built in 1978 and that's when the (original) 99 year leases started. Aside from names & addresses, all of the leases are identical.

Some 20 years ago the (then) lessees of five of the flats, including mine (all owner-occupiers), undertook collective enfranchisement (of the whole block), placing the freehold into a company limited by guarantee, created by them for the purpose, as nominee purchaser. The (now) lessees of those five flats are the members of the company (and the only members) and four lessees (one each from four of those flats) are the directors of the company (inc me).

Some years ago two of those lessees extended their leases (to 2202 for some reason). They did it separately from each other, a year or so apart, but the second used the same solicitor as the first, and so, unsurprisingly, the two extensions, which were done by a Deed of Variation, are identical, aside from name, address & title number.

Earlier this year the lessees of the remaining three of those flats (the ones that enfranchised), including me, decided we also wanted to extend our leases, the other two needing to for mortgage/equity release reasons, and I have no specific need but just thought it'd be a good idea too. So, we were going to look for a solicitor to do all three, but due to a miscommunication the other two have instructed a solicitor without me.

I have received copies of the other two's extensions, which this time are done as a "renewal" (or "grant", I think), to sign in my role as a director of the freehold company, and not only are they identical to each other aside from name, address & title number, they are also very similar to the previous Deed of Variation extensions (the LRn parts are identical) -- and are, of course, to the same date in 2202 and with the same conditions (which are nothing else changes).

Now, I could, of course, also instruct that solicitor for my extension too ... however, it looks like I'll be paying them £750+VAT, plus disbursements, for what is, in this case, just a copy'n'paste job, so I was wondering...

Can I just do the extension myself? That is, copy one of the other (recent) extension documents, word for word, substituting only my name, address & title number, and send it off to the Land Registry with whatever the appropriate fee is?

I wouldn't dream of trying this from scratch, but I have extensions I can copy and, as I say, everything is identical for all cases; the leases being extended are all identical, the date extended to is the same for all (and would be the same for me), there has been and will be no premium for any of them, and there's no conflict; everyone is agreed to all of the extensions, oh, and in my case, there's no mortgage. So, is DIY in this case possible?

[Gengulphus]

I can see three potential problems:

* You don't get the solicitor's advice - if by any chance there is something about your circumstances that makes a different course of action advisable, you won't get to hear about it.

* You don't get the benefit of the solicitor's professional indemnity insurance - if the solicitor's wording turns out to be defective in some way, the other leaseholders will be in line for compensation, but you won't.

* Copyright. Assuming the solicitor is the author of the wording concerned and put the (fairly minimal) amount of originality needed to make it a copyrightable work into it, they own the copyright to it. I'm not certain whether that actually adds up to a case for being able to sue you for what they would charge you to produce it - but if it does, a solicitor is likely to know!

Not saying any of these three is a major risk, or even necessarily a real risk at all - just that in your position, I would put some thought into whether I wanted to take them.

Gengulphus

[pochisoldi]

Any lease extension for a lease subject to a mortgage will need to go through a solicitor. The lender will also charge £85+ to accept a deed of substituted security. You might be able to avoid the freeholder's legal costs by reusing the deed of variation.
Pochisoldi

[brightncheerful]

I have received copies of the other two's extensions, which this time are done as a "renewal" (or "grant", I think), to sign in my role as a director of the freehold company,

So basically the reason you know what others are doing is because of your role as signatory pp the freehold company. This may be wrong but I think you'll find you have a duty of care not to abuse your role as a director of the freehold company. If you 'copy' the documents then apart from breach of copyright either or both of the other two could sue you to breach of trust. In any event, any action on your behalf that could be linked to your role as director of the freehold company could lead to distrust and reluctance by any of the others to have any dealings with you.

You would be well-advised to read the constitution of the freehold company and check what is required of a director.

[brightncheerful]

I have received copies of the other two's extensions, which this time are done as a "renewal" (or "grant", I think), to sign in my role as a director of the freehold company,

So basically the reason you know what others are doing is because of your role as signatory pp the freehold company. This may be wrong but I think you'll find you have a duty of care not to abuse your role as a director of the freehold company. If you 'copy' the documents then apart from breach of copyright either or both of the other two could sue you to breach of trust. In any event, any action on your behalf that could be linked to your role as director of the freehold company could lead to distrust and reluctance by any of the others to have any dealings with you.

You would be well-advised to read the constitution of the freehold company and check what is required of a director.

[mc2fool]

Not saying any of these three is a major risk, or even necessarily a real risk at all - just that in your position, I would put some thought into whether I wanted to take them.

Yes, all points to consider, I agree. For the first "if by any chance there is something about your circumstances that makes a different course of action advisable", it's difficult to see what that could be, given the identicalness of everything, but there's always the possibility of "unknown unknowns"

On the copyright question, given the amazing similarity - and large sections of total and exact identity - of the four extensions, done by two different solicitors (from different firms) at three different times, it all looks formulaic.

Any lease extension for a lease subject to a mortgage will need to go through a solicitor.

There is no mortgage.

So basically the reason you know what others are doing is because of your role as signatory pp the freehold company. This may be wrong but I think you'll find you have a duty of care not to abuse your role as a director of the freehold company. If you 'copy' the documents then apart from breach of copyright either or both of the other two could sue you to breach of trust. In any event, any action on your behalf that could be linked to your role as director of the freehold company could lead to distrust and reluctance by any of the others to have any dealings with you.

You would be well-advised to read the constitution of the freehold company and check what is required of a director.

Thanks for your concern, however it seems to be based on some incorrect assumptions. The reason we all know what each is doing is 'cos we all talk to each other, and 'cos we all copy and/or pass around anything (documents etc) relevant to the flats; after all, we all live here. The other directors are already aware I'm looking into this and, anyway, there's no possibility of me pulling any kind of fast one as any extension will have to be signed by me as the leaseholder and another director for the freehold, and that'll only happen if all directors are agreed.

In any case, I don't know if such a DIY extension is even possible, or whether it's something that must be done by a solicitor. I've googled around and not found an answer either way, and was hoping someone here would know....

[Clitheroekid]

[In any case, I don't know if such a DIY extension is even possible, or whether it's something that must be done by a solicitor. I've googled around and not found an answer either way, and was hoping someone here would know....

No, it doesn't have to be done by a solicitor. Anyone is entitled to do their own conveyancing, and they can even do it for others provided they don't charge for it.

It's correct to say that you would be breaching the copyright of the solicitor that created the documents, though realistically it's fairly unlikely that he would ever get to find out or even if he did that he could be bothered to do anything about it.

However, as you don't know what you're doing there is obviously an element of risk. There may be something slightly different about your flat that would require slightly different documents, or the law / Land Registry rules may have changed by the time of registration so that those documents no longer work.

But realistically the risk is fairly low, particularly as you're not actually laying out any cash, and as you're in control from both sides any errors would almost certainly be correctable without too much difficulty

However, you would also need to deal with registration at the Land Registry yourself, which is a significant PITA. Solicitors have everything already set up and can easily register transactions, but as a private individual you are treated as a potential fraudster by LR and have to jump through various hoops to prove identity and so on.

It really comes down to the relative importance for you of saving money on the one hand and saving time and hassle on the other.

If I were you I'd just approach the solicitor who did the other two, tell him you're aware that he's already dealt with identical transactions and ask if he could give you a special rate. I'd offer him, say, £350 + VAT and disbursements, which is probably worth it just for the amount of hassle and worry you'd be avoiding. And for him it's £350 easy money for probably an hour's work at most.

[didds]

If I were you I'd just approach the solicitor who did the other two, tell him you're aware that he's already dealt with identical transactions and ask if he could give you a special rate. I'd offer him, say, £350 + VAT and disbursements, which is probably worth it just for the amount of hassle and worry you'd be avoiding. And for him it's £350 easy money for probably an hour's work at most.

And if it really is a case of "changing the name and address etc" fields then (s)he has potentially earned £750 for a few minutes work with one of the other flat owners. Unless the real rate for one contract was £1500, split two ways I suppose.

didds

[mc2fool]

No, it doesn't have to be done by a solicitor. Anyone is entitled to do their own conveyancing, and they can even do it for others provided they don't charge for it.

Thanks for your reply and the points you made, CK. I wonder if you could point me (with a link, if possible) where I might start with the Land Registry to read up on exactly what's needed and how daunting this may be. Unsurprisingly they don't seem to have a "DIY extensions for dummies" page and in my looking around for where to start I think it's a case of I can't see the wood for the trees....

In regards to your "offer 'em £350" suggestion, I don't think that's going to fly 'cos...

And if it really is a case of "changing the name and address etc" fields then (s)he has potentially earned £750 for a few minutes work with one of the other flat owners. Unless the real rate for one contract was £1500, split two ways I suppose.

They've already quoted their prices as £1000+VAT for one extension and £750+VAT each for two or three.