Pubs, and change of use

[Mike4]

If a person buys a village pub, uses it as his home and stops opening the doors regularly, closing on odd days here and there and sometimes closing at 8pm or 9pm on a whim, is there anything that can be done about it?

In another case close to my heart a person has bought a different village pub, closed it down and re-opened it as an art gallery. Same question really, is there anything that can be done?!

Buying a failing pub then changing it into a home seems to have been a good way of making money recently, but there now seems to be a trend developing where good successful pubs are being purchased for far less than similar buildings as houses would cost, then driven into the ground, in order to change them into residences. How can locals combat this?

[Itsallaguess]

If a person buys a village pub, uses it as his home and stops opening the doors regularly, closing on odd days here and there and sometimes closing at 8pm or 9pm on a whim, is there anything that can be done about it?

In another case close to my heart a person has bought a different village pub, closed it down and re-opened it as an art gallery. Same question really, is there anything that can be done?!

Buying a failing pub then changing it into a home seems to have been a good way of making money recently, but there now seems to be a trend developing where good successful pubs are being purchased for far less than similar buildings as houses would cost, then driven into the ground, in order to change them into residences.

How can locals combat this?

Ensure that the pub continues to be viable as a business?

I assume that would entail more patronage from the locals than these pubs are currently seeing. Who's fault is this problem, ultimately, the pub-owners or the (lack of) customers?

Seriously though, I'm not sure what you expect to happen in a free and capitalist society.

Do you want to see subsidies from somewhere, so long as these places are kept open as drinking places? We don't seem to be able to do that with village post-offices, and they play an equally important social role in rural areas. Should these pubs get special-privilege from somewhere in the form of grants?

Or would you rather there was some sort of rule-system, where people buying pubs can't then turn them into dwellings if the business-case doesn't hold water to continue it as a pub?

Isn't there a chance that all you'll be left with then are empty, closed pubs standing empty for years, which the owners can't do anything else with?

I'm not sure that would be the best answer for many of these rural buildings either, but would you class that as a success?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[AleisterCrowley]

Sometimes these these pubs are entirely viable as a business, but are bought and intentionally run into the ground. I have seen it happen...
Either that or the landlord closes it, then there's a 'mysterious fire' and the place is demolished and a luxury development appears ..

[Itsallaguess]

Sometimes these these pubs are entirely viable as a business, but are bought and intentionally run into the ground. I have seen it happen...

But what right does anyone have to tell the market-place what to do with a building?

Do we have a right to force a shop that used to sell shoes, in any high-street in the land, to continue selling shoes?

Clearly not, and I'm just not sure why pubs should be any different.

That said, I do also appreciate the sense of loss that a 'one-or-two-local' village might feel when this happens. It's just that I can't really see what can be done about it without causing further unintended-consequences further down the line, which may turn out to be much worse than having an extra home in the village...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Imbiber]

Pubs can be listed as an Asset of Community Value

http://www.camra.org.uk/list-your-local

[Clitheroekid]

If a person buys a village pub, uses it as his home and stops opening the doors regularly, closing on odd days here and there and sometimes closing at 8pm or 9pm on a whim, is there anything that can be done about it?

In another case close to my heart a person has bought a different village pub, closed it down and re-opened it as an art gallery. Same question really, is there anything that can be done?!

Buying a failing pub then changing it into a home seems to have been a good way of making money recently, but there now seems to be a trend developing where good successful pubs are being purchased for far less than similar buildings as houses would cost, then driven into the ground, in order to change them into residences. How can locals combat this?

Changing a pub into a residence requires planning permission.

If the owner appears to be doing this by stealth then you can report him to the council, who can take enforcement action against him.

Also, many local councils will not grant planning permission for change of use unless the owner can demonstrate that the pub isn't a viable proposition and that he's made all reasonable efforts to sell it as a going concern.

Sadly, these days this isn't as difficult to establish as one might hope.

[didds]

http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/news/1 ... ouse_fate/

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news ... nts-anchor

[AleisterCrowley]

e]

But what right does anyone have to tell the market-place what to do with a building?

Do we have a right to force a shop that used to sell shoes, in any high-street in the land, to continue selling shoes?

Clearly not, and I'm just not sure why pubs should be any different.

That said, I do also appreciate the sense of loss that a 'one-or-two-local' village might feel when this happens. It's just that I can't really see what can be done about it without causing further unintended-consequences further down the line, which may turn out to be much worse than having an extra home in the village...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

A high street shoe shop turning into,say, a hardware shop is hardly comparable. Pubs are not just 'beer shops' - they have a social role, particularly in rural communities. There isn't a free market anyway - the market is heavily distorted by government legislation/taxation etc - sometime for the good, sometimes not.

A pub is a social hub - tremendously good for social cohesion and mutual support. Any sensible government would realise this and ensure the regulatory environment supports genuine 'locals'

I'm pleased to see some rural pubs have been successfully taken over by local cooperatives, although too many have been lost to private housing, restaurants etc.
Here's one 'back home';
http://www.pheasantatneenton.co.uk/

[Dorn1]

Its surprisingly common, but the need for planning permission mentioned by other posters is a very valid point. Success will depend on the attitude of your local council and how well the case is presented.
Some folk (with their local Parish Council) get them registered as assets of community value, while this raises the barriers to change of use, its not a cast-iron guarantee and can be circumvented by allowing the times periods to run out.
C

[midnightcatprowl]

Ensure that the pub continues to be viable as a business?

This is the key issue I'm afraid. I'm all for local pubs and local shops and local what have you. BUT from personal experience I'd say that people want things to be there so they can continue to use them (occasionally?) or even just have a nice warm glow about them being there even though they don't personally use them, without having any real concept of what it takes to keep a business going financially.

I've never run a pub (and my word do you have to be the ultimate hard worker to run a pub) but I've owned and run a small shop. When we were finally forced to close our door for the last time at the end of June 2016 our customers were horrified. Now some of those customers were people who came into the shop on a regular basis and who had a right to be sad about the closure (and I can assure you we were sad to be saying goodbye to them) but many of the people who were sad/upset/horrified/even tearful believe it or not, about our closure, were people who loved shopping with us in their minds but who had in fact turned up at long and irregular intervals to mostly buy very little while actually regarding themselves as great supporters of the shop. I think that today local pubs face the same problem. People like having those pubs around but by and large have no regular commitment to them. People today have so many different sources of entertainment available to them so their attention and money is spread over all of those, then one day they fancy a drink in the evening or a pub Sunday lunch and discover the pub has gone or is in the process of being run down.

You know the opening hours of my own shop gradually reduced, not because I wanted to close it, in fact running it was my passion, and getting someone else to take on the lease meant another huge financial commitment which I'm still paying off, but because customers did not use the opening hours which they demanded. Open earlier because of urgently stated demand? You or a staff member spend that time on your own. Do a late evening opening because of urgently stated customer demand? You or a staff member mostly spend that time on your own or with just odd sales which don't meet the cost of staying open for that extra time. Open on a Sunday - people are always asking you to open on Sunday, it seems they are desperate to shop on a Sunday, to bring their friends and guests on a Sunday - responding to this huge demand I used to open my shop on a Sunday often to have no customers at all or sell less than £5 worth of goods which given the profit margin on £5 of sales meant that the electricity for lighting the shop and my fuel to get to the shop usually cost more than we'd taken.

I'm quite sure that people do buy pubs with a view to running them down and selling the property for development but there are many more prospective pub owners who honestly take on such premises and who are then defeated by the gap between what the public feel they want and what the public actually do, plus there is the big issue of 'tied' pubs and the outrageous charges made by the large brewery companies who encourage innocents into pub tenancies only to fleece them royally and with no concern given that those who give up can easily be replaced from the queue of new innocents.

N.B. Some pubs do survive where they are taken on by groups or co-operatives of local people but presumably taking such action means that they do use the facilities themselves and strongly encourage their friends and neighbours to do likewise.

[Mike4]

Thanks for replies everyone.

The point I'm trying to address is this person is very skilled at deliberately turning a previously successful pub into a loss-making pub after buying it. Techniques for driving customers away like repeatedly and randomly closing the pub, being open but having no beer on a regular basis (in particular on hot summer evenings or new years eve) cellaring the beer badly when there is some, serving awful food, banning regular customers for complaining about these things.

How can locals resist the deliberate sabotage of a good pub by means such as this?

[felixcanis]

CAMRA have some info about this - see http://www.camra.org.uk/campaigners

Might give you some ideas.

FelixC

[didds]

How can locals resist the deliberate sabotage of a good pub by means such as this?

Ah - "asset stripping" in effect.

didds

[brightncheerful]

The point I'm trying to address is this person is very skilled at deliberately turning a previously successful pub into a loss-making pub after buying it.

In principle, there's nothing wrong with that.

It's what happens next that seems to be of concern. As others have said, planning permission is needed to change from a pub to residential. Whether the planners would grant consent depends upon how convinced they are that everything has been done to make the pub business viable.

Planning permission is not normally required to change from pub to retail, but planning permission would be required for external structural alterations and if the building is listed then internal structural alterations too.

If the op has concerns then I'd suggest visiting the pub regularly and discretely taking photos of anything that looks like it should have to get planning permission if altered.

The residential accommodation in a pub is normally ancillary use of the pub. Deterring custom for the pub in an attempt to 'change' the ancillary residential into the primary use should be the subject of an enforcement notice by the planners.

[swill453]

The point I'm trying to address is this person is very skilled at deliberately turning a previously successful pub into a loss-making pub after buying it.

In principle, there's nothing wrong with that.

I think the point being made is that it is the principle that is wrong. The legalities and technicalities of planning permission are by-the-by.

It's an emotional thing.

Scott.

[Gengulphus]

I think the point being made is that it is the principle that is wrong. The legalities and technicalities of planning permission are by-the-by.

No, they're not by-the-by! This is the "Legal Issues (Practical)" board, and the legalities and technicalities are what people who want to do something legal about it in practice have to deal with...

I've no strong objections to the principle being discussed, but I do object to attempts to treat the legal practicalities dismissively!

Gengulphus

[swill453]

This is the "Legal Issues (Practical)" board

So it is. I guess you have a point then

Scott.

[PinkDalek]

... Planning permission is not normally required to change from pub to retail, ...

I'm not knowledgeable enough to understand the legislation but hasn't there been a change on this recently due to the Neighbourhood Planning Act 2017?

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/201 ... ts/enacted

Something about (some?) pubs now being sui generis rather than A4, such that those which are drinking establishments would require planning consent.

Maybe I've misunderstood and I only mention it to continue the discussion.

[didds]

I was under a similar impression PD, though I wouldn't have known what law.

didds

[brightncheerful]

.. but hasn't there been a change on this recently due to the Neighbourhood Planning Act 2017?

Thanks for that, I' wasn't aware. Having downloaded the Act, s15 only applies when this Act comes into force (and presumably, I've not read the Act, only when the locality has an Approved Neighbourhood Plan.