ID for house purchase

[Peanutte]

My daughter (and b/f) are looking to buy a house.

The mortgage broker says that his firm will do ID checks electronically, but that for the lender, he will need photo id.

She was born in the UK and has not traveled abroad for years. She does not and has never driven.

He suggested that she apply for a provisional driving licence pronto.

He also said that the conveyancers will require photo id and may not accept a provisional driving licence - so she may have to apply for a passport.

I do understand that the lender is committing a large amount of money and has to be sure who they are lending to, but is there no way someone can use other documents?

It does seem extra aggravation and extra expense on top of all the other stuff involved in house purchase - especially when she does not want or need either a driving licence or passport!

Thanks.

[chas49]

This is more practical than legal advice, but I suspect she will need photo id for plenty of other things - including applying for jobs - so I would say just get a passport.

[Peanutte]

"

she will need photo id for plenty of other things - including applying for jobs - so I would say just get a passport.

She works for the local council and will probably do so until she retires (unless something untoward happens).

She's too old to need id to buy alcohol or be challenged about her age in a pub.

She is quite happy with her accounts with Nationwide and the Co-op Bank.

She has managed without a passport so far. It would 'just' be for the house purchase.

Pea.

[Alaric]

She works for the local council and will probably do so until she retires (unless something untoward happens).

Many employers issue their employees with photo id to give them access to restricted areas etc.

[midnightcatprowl]

For those at the other end of the age spectrum Senior Citizen bus passes which carry a photo are often (not always) accepted in situations where it says in the rules and regulations that you have to provide either a photo driving licence or a passport. As I still have an old paper driving licence I can't use that for ID and due to an acute dislike of travel (the process not the destinations!) I don't have a passport. I've actually never used the bus pass on a bus but I have used it with great success when collecting parcels and on the sort of occasions when you have to produce photo ID to get another form of ID e.g. getting a card for the local auction house. My technique is to shove the bus pass + a couple of recent bills at people and it seems to work. But I fear I'm dealing with more reasonable people than estate agents and mortgage companies.

[pochisoldi]

My daughter (and b/f) are looking to buy a house.

The mortgage broker says that his firm will do ID checks electronically, but that for the lender, he will need photo id.

She was born in the UK and has not traveled abroad for years. She does not and has never driven.

He suggested that she apply for a provisional driving licence pronto.

He also said that the conveyancers will require photo id and may not accept a provisional driving licence - so she may have to apply for a passport.

I do understand that the lender is committing a large amount of money and has to be sure who they are lending to, but is there no way someone can use other documents?

It does seem extra aggravation and extra expense on top of all the other stuff involved in house purchase - especially when she does not want or need either a driving licence or passport!

Thanks.

No need for a passport or photo drivers licence application...

Go to the CML Lenders Handbook at https://www.cml.org.uk/lenders-handbook/
Select the appropriate region and lender.
Click on "Parts 1 and 2"
Click Submit Query
In the Contents menu click on section "3 - Safeguards"
Scroll down to section 3.1.5 and you'll find out which documents are acceptable to the lender.

If whoever you are dealing with gives you grief and insists on photo ID, give them the information above.

As an example Natwest in England and Wales have the following requirements:
"3.1.5 Unless you personally know the signatory of a document, you must ask the signatory to provide evidence of identity, which you must carefully check. You should check the signatory's identity against one of the documents from list A or two of the documents in list B: List A

a valid full passport; or
a valid H M Forces identity card with the signatory's photograph; or
a valid UK Photo-card driving licence; or
any other document listed in the additional list A in part 2.

List B

a cheque guarantee card, credit card (bearing the Mastercard or Visa logo) American Express or Diners Club card, debit or multi-function card (bearing the Switch or Delta logo) issued in the United Kingdom with an original account statement less than three months old; or
a firearm and shot gun certificate; or
a receipted utility bill less than three months old; or
a council tax bill less than three months old; or
a council rent book showing the rent paid for the last three months; or
a mortgage statement from another lender for the mortgage accounting year just ended; or
any other document listed in the additional list B in part 2.

3.1.5 What other documents are acceptable for verifying identity?
UK driving licence - old style, Inland Revenue Tax notification and Construction Industry tax exemption certificate issued by the Inland Revenue."

PochiSoldi

[AJC5001]

List B

a cheque guarantee card, credit card (bearing the Mastercard or Visa logo) American Express or Diners Club card, debit or multi-function card (bearing the Switch or Delta logo) issued in the United Kingdom with an original account statement less than three months old; or

PochiSoldi

What is a 'cheque guarantee card'?
"In the United Kingdom the scheme was first trialled in 1965 and fully introduced in 1969, with a limit of £30. The limit was increased to £50 in 1977 and then to £100 or £250, at the bank's discretion, in 1989.[2] As of 2009 the scheme was only used to guarantee 7% of the 1.4 billion cheques issued each year,[3] a figure which itself is declining due to the popularity of other means of payment such as debit cards. The Payments Council therefore announced a decision in September 2009 to withdraw the cheque guarantee scheme on 30 June 2011, and the scheme has now been closed."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheque_guarantee_card

Switch was discontinued in 2002 according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switch_(debit_card).

Delta was even earlier "The Visa Debit card was previously known as "Visa Delta" solely in the UK.[9] The Delta name began to be phased out in favour of the Visa Debit branding from September 1998." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_Debit

Adrian

[pochisoldi]

List B

a cheque guarantee card, credit card (bearing the Mastercard or Visa logo) American Express or Diners Club card, debit or multi-function card (bearing the Switch or Delta logo) issued in the United Kingdom with an original account statement less than three months old; or

PochiSoldi

What is a 'cheque guarantee card'?
"In the United Kingdom the scheme was first trialled in 1965 and fully introduced in 1969, with a limit of £30. The limit was increased to £50 in 1977 and then to £100 or £250, at the bank's discretion, in 1989.[2] As of 2009 the scheme was only used to guarantee 7% of the 1.4 billion cheques issued each year,[3] a figure which itself is declining due to the popularity of other means of payment such as debit cards. The Payments Council therefore announced a decision in September 2009 to withdraw the cheque guarantee scheme on 30 June 2011, and the scheme has now been closed."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheque_guarantee_card

Switch was discontinued in 2002 according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switch_(debit_card).

Delta was even earlier "The Visa Debit card was previously known as "Visa Delta" solely in the UK.[9] The Delta name began to be phased out in favour of the Visa Debit branding from September 1998." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_Debit

Adrian

Do you always perform a full dental examination on any gift horses you may be offered?

[didds]

This is more practical than legal advice, but I suspect she will need photo id for plenty of other things - including applying for jobs - so I would say just get a passport.

I fully appreciate chas49's advice is given in good faith etc... but its a ridiculousness situation we have arrived when somebody has to buy something totally unneeded just so they can be "identified".

Meamnwhile... a passport is £72.50. A provisional license is £34.

Proof of age for drinking cards are £15. If the OP's contact cannot avoid this picture card proof why wouldn;t a PASS card suffice at a fraction of the cost of a passport?

didds

[pochisoldi]

Proof of age for drinking cards are £15. If the OP's contact cannot avoid this picture card proof why wouldn;t a PASS card suffice at a fraction of the cost of a passport?

didds

The PASS card does not appear on the CML Part 1 document list, nor does it appear on any lender's Part 2 document list.
My advice is get the info from the horses mouth - the CML Lenders Handbook, then use said handbook to protect yourself from clueless eegits who think that everyone drives and/or goes abroad.

PochiSoldi

[didds]

Proof of age for drinking cards are £15. If the OP's contact cannot avoid this picture card proof why wouldn;t a PASS card suffice at a fraction of the cost of a passport?

didds

The PASS card does not appear on the CML Part 1 document list, nor does it appear on any lender's Part 2 document list.
My advice is get the info from the horses mouth - the CML Lenders Handbook, then use said handbook to protect yourself from clueless eegits who think that everyone drives and/or goes abroad.

PochiSoldi

That's a very fair point from pochi.

However, the fact remains that this person is being asked for photo ID when she doesn't actually need it, and the alternatives from this lists are not be offered to her as an option. The requester is setting her up to spend money she doesn't need to .

So yes, drop the PASS card idea But the person asking for photo ID either is being economical with the full truth (presumably for their own easy life/purposes) or they are just ignorant.

didds

[malkymoo]

Meamnwhile... a passport is £72.50.


didds

It can also require a visit to the nearest passport office which may be many miles away. A friend of mine was recently required to travel from Stroud to Newport to get a first passport (at age 63). He does not drive so it took him all day plus his train fare, plus loss of self-employed earnings. Like the OP's daughter he has never needed a passport and was advised to get one for identification.

[AJC5001]

List B

a cheque guarantee card, credit card (bearing the Mastercard or Visa logo) American Express or Diners Club card, debit or multi-function card (bearing the Switch or Delta logo) issued in the United Kingdom with an original account statement less than three months old; or

PochiSoldi

What is a 'cheque guarantee card'?
"In the United Kingdom the scheme was first trialled in 1965 and fully introduced in 1969, with a limit of £30. The limit was increased to £50 in 1977 and then to £100 or £250, at the bank's discretion, in 1989.[2] As of 2009 the scheme was only used to guarantee 7% of the 1.4 billion cheques issued each year,[3] a figure which itself is declining due to the popularity of other means of payment such as debit cards. The Payments Council therefore announced a decision in September 2009 to withdraw the cheque guarantee scheme on 30 June 2011, and the scheme has now been closed."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheque_guarantee_card

Switch was discontinued in 2002 according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switch_(debit_card).

Delta was even earlier "The Visa Debit card was previously known as "Visa Delta" solely in the UK.[9] The Delta name began to be phased out in favour of the Visa Debit branding from September 1998." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_Debit

Adrian

Do you always perform a full dental examination on any gift horses you may be offered?

When the part I quoted is so obviously out-of-date, what do you expect?

Adrian

[Clitheroekid]

There's no doubt that proving identity is one of the most frustrating, time-consuming and often expensive exercises that normal people have to endure. If it's any consolation, it's just as annoying for us as it is for you, as we have to keep records of the ID checks carried out.

But the most stupid aspect of it is that the same miserable process has to be repeated over and over again.

I've had many clients involved in buying a house who have had to prove who they are first to the estate agent, then to the mortgage lender and then again to me - a totally absurd waste of time and effort for everyone concerned.

There needs to be a mechanism whereby a person can establish their identity once and for all and be issued with a certificate of identity.

The simplest scheme would be compulsory identity cards, but if this was too controversial the government could simply introduce voluntary identity cards. For a modest fee - I would think around £50 should be enough to cover the running costs - you would be issued with a certificate of identity that you could use whenever required, instead of having to go through this ludicrous rigmarole all the time.

Of course the certificate would have to be renewed each time you moved, but as your identity would already have been established by then it should be a simple enough process to keep the certificate up to date.

If it's too useful and sensible for the government to undertake the task there must be a good business opportunity for a private company to do it. I can't imagine it would be particularly difficult for a reputable company to achieve some form of accreditation from the government that would enable them to issue such certificates.

It might even be possible to licence companies such as banks to issue the certificate, so a visit to the local branch would get the job done (and maybe help to maintain the branch network a bit longer as well).

I would certainly pay £50 for such a certificate, and I'm sure many others would do so as well, so the potential market would be massive.

[Alaric]

There's no doubt that proving identity is one of the most frustrating, time-consuming and often expensive exercises that normal people have to endure.

Is it too much to hope that by shouting loudly enough at politicians that these processes can be abolished or at least streamlined? It's one of the frustrating things about General Elections in particular and the political process in general that these drip by drip erosions of liberty are usually very difficult to challenge.

[mc2fool]

There's no doubt that proving identity is one of the most frustrating, time-consuming and often expensive exercises that normal people have to endure.

Is it too much to hope that by shouting loudly enough at politicians that these processes can be abolished or at least streamlined?

Wot, you mean like http://www.experian.co.uk/identity-and- ... cking.html or even like https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... vuk-verify?

In the great majority of cases ID checks can be done electronically (as, indeed, the OP said the broker did for his daughter) and companies and organisations that don't do so as a first resort should be asked to justify their excuses as to why not.

[Alaric]

companies and organisations that don't do so as a first resort should be asked to justify their excuses as to why not.

I entirely agree, although it didn't stop the ridiculous demands of Selftrade for both a direct debit mandate and a printed bank statement and then later those demands for your financial life history.

[DrBunsenHoneydew]

As a slight tangent, it is important that the buyer's conveyancer/solicitor establishes the ID of the seller assiduously. There is a scam whereby a tenant of a rented mortgage-free property changes their name to match that of the landlord by deed poll, legitimately applies for a new passport/driver licence in their new name and then goes to an estate agent to 'sell' the rented property using these documents to prove ID to the estate agent and the selling conveyancer. They can arrange for utility/phone bills etc in their new name and the correct address easily enough too if required. The tenant/seller requests the agent to find a cash buyer to avoid a mortgage bank legal team from being involved. The buyer's legal bod would usually rely on the seller's ID being established by the seller's legal bod and the cash is paid over. The tenant disappears with the money. The Land Registry gets told some time later and may or may not spot something fishy. If they do, the transfer fails and the landlord keeps the property, but the money is gone and the buyer is out of pocket. He sues his legal eagle. This has happened to the famous name firm of Mishcon de Reya who are appealing against having to pay back the buyer's 1million pound loss. https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/practice/mishcons-1m-id-fraud-bill-sounds-alarm-bells-/5059582.article

Buyer beware!

[UncleEbenezer]

There's no doubt that proving identity is one of the most frustrating, time-consuming and often expensive exercises that normal people have to endure.

Indeed. In many cases I'd expect it to be easier for a competent fraudster (who knows the ropes) than for the real person.

Is it too much to hope that by shouting loudly enough at politicians that these processes can be abolished or at least streamlined?

Trouble with politicians is, if you give them a simple (or at least conceptually simple) problem, they'll all want to tag on their own pet projects. Identity gets entangled with elements of the Police State, and it becomes hard to separate the Good and Sinister motives behind a proposal such as compulsory identity cards.

Wot, you mean like http://www.experian.co.uk/identity-and- ... cking.html or even like https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... vuk-verify?

(Disclaimer: I have been professionally involved in some of the technology behind those).

This tackles a rather different problem. The hard part of any cryptographic identity system is bootstrapping: I can prove that I'm the same "me" I was last time we communicated, but who am I in the first place? The UK government system appears to work without any strong check of that, so it doesn't really solve much.

In the great majority of cases ID checks can be done electronically (as, indeed, the OP said the broker did for his daughter) and companies and organisations that don't do so as a first resort should be asked to justify their excuses as to why not.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

[mc2fool]

Wot, you mean like http://www.experian.co.uk/identity-and- ... cking.html or even like https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... vuk-verify?

(Disclaimer: I have been professionally involved in some of the technology behind those).

This tackles a rather different problem. The hard part of any cryptographic identity system is bootstrapping: I can prove that I'm the same "me" I was last time we communicated, but who am I in the first place? The UK government system appears to work without any strong check of that, so it doesn't really solve much.

If you've been involved then you'll know that there isn't actually a UK government system per se but that they've contracted out the checking to certified companies, each of which has different ways of verifying your identity (albeit with a lot in common).

But in any case, I'm not quite sure what you mean by the above, as verifying who you are is the very first thing the certified companies do. It's only once that's done they just get you to prove you are the same person they verified you were in the first place.

Of course, if you've fraudulently obtained a passport & driving licence as "Joe Soap", got yourself onto the electoral register, have an address history, and opened bank accounts & credit cards that you can answer questions about, etc, all under that name, then, sure, it's going to be hard for any system (not just electronic ones) to check who you are "in the first place". I'm not sure what can reliably be done about such "first place" checking: DNA capture at birth?

In the great majority of cases ID checks can be done electronically (as, indeed, the OP said the broker did for his daughter) and companies and organisations that don't do so as a first resort should be asked to justify their excuses as to why not.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Hmmm...I haven't heard anybody say, damn them, they verified my ID electronically instead of putting me through the grief and expenses of getting certified copies of my passport and council tax bill...