Questions about deeds
Posted: October 16th, 2023, 6:20 pm
Hi, Fist post of what could be many!
We have a situation that (to us) is very stressful and has many questions, and wish I'd found this forum sooner. I have already learned a lot, but still have more to discover.
The whole situation spans many years, so probably best if I give a breakdown of what has happened:
1959 - My grandfather-in-law bought a shop.
1971 - My father-in-law bought the shop from his father (jointly with his wife).
1971 - My father-in-law and his wife bought the plot of land next to the shop.
2012 - My in-laws sold a part of the land to the side of the shop to a developer.
2018 - My mother-in-law recovered the deeds for both properties from the solicitors. These were then put in storage.
2020 - I (acting on behalf of my in-laws) instigated a sale of both properties.
It was at this point that things went askew. We instructed a solicitor recommended by the business transfer agent, who immediately pointed out that some of the deeds were missing. He contacted the solicitor that dealt with the sale of part in 2012, but they denied any wrongdoing.
The sale fell through, and the way the solicitor was dealing with the case was very abrupt, and causing stress to my mother-in-law, so we ceased dealings with him.
We then instructed the solicitor that had dealt with the sale of part to carry out a first registration of both properties. Our thoughts were that if they had messed up they might be best placed to 'fix' it rather than admitting messing up.
The solicitors looked into the situation, and said that according to their documents the deeds for the plot of land were sent to the buyers solicitors so that hey could register the part of the land they had bought, but were never returned.
We have since looked into this and our understanding is that prior to 2016 all first registrations required original documents to be sent in, and after this certified copies were acceptable - so it makes sense that the buyer would need the original documents.
The solicitor eventually had some original documents returned by the buyers solicitor, which confirms the line that they gave them the documents but never got them back. Missing, however is the original of the 1971 conveyance (the most important document!).
Now though, the solicitor is saying that they never gave the buyers solicitor the original of the 1971 conveyance. They are saying as far as they are concerned all documents were handed back in 2018 - even though this is clearly not true as the buyers solicitor returned some documents in 2022.
The solicitor is saying our only option is to complete a first registration with missing deeds, gain a possessory title, then attempt to sell with indemnity insurance (at our expense) or wait 12 years to gain absolute title. The buyer we were dealing with had said he would not buy with a possessory title, so we think this would be the worst possible outcome.
Sorry for the (very) long post, I thought best to provide as much information as possible!
My questions are:
As the sale of part was prior to 2016 would the buyer's solicitor have needed the original documents?
I have read on here about getting deeds 'reconstructed'. Would this be possible in this case? (we have copies, and an allegedly certified copy)
I read (can't remember where) that if a solicitor admits fault in losing the deeds the Land Registry may provide absolute title - Is this true?
Thanks in advance for any help you can give.
We have a situation that (to us) is very stressful and has many questions, and wish I'd found this forum sooner. I have already learned a lot, but still have more to discover.
The whole situation spans many years, so probably best if I give a breakdown of what has happened:
1959 - My grandfather-in-law bought a shop.
1971 - My father-in-law bought the shop from his father (jointly with his wife).
1971 - My father-in-law and his wife bought the plot of land next to the shop.
2012 - My in-laws sold a part of the land to the side of the shop to a developer.
2018 - My mother-in-law recovered the deeds for both properties from the solicitors. These were then put in storage.
2020 - I (acting on behalf of my in-laws) instigated a sale of both properties.
It was at this point that things went askew. We instructed a solicitor recommended by the business transfer agent, who immediately pointed out that some of the deeds were missing. He contacted the solicitor that dealt with the sale of part in 2012, but they denied any wrongdoing.
The sale fell through, and the way the solicitor was dealing with the case was very abrupt, and causing stress to my mother-in-law, so we ceased dealings with him.
We then instructed the solicitor that had dealt with the sale of part to carry out a first registration of both properties. Our thoughts were that if they had messed up they might be best placed to 'fix' it rather than admitting messing up.
The solicitors looked into the situation, and said that according to their documents the deeds for the plot of land were sent to the buyers solicitors so that hey could register the part of the land they had bought, but were never returned.
We have since looked into this and our understanding is that prior to 2016 all first registrations required original documents to be sent in, and after this certified copies were acceptable - so it makes sense that the buyer would need the original documents.
The solicitor eventually had some original documents returned by the buyers solicitor, which confirms the line that they gave them the documents but never got them back. Missing, however is the original of the 1971 conveyance (the most important document!).
Now though, the solicitor is saying that they never gave the buyers solicitor the original of the 1971 conveyance. They are saying as far as they are concerned all documents were handed back in 2018 - even though this is clearly not true as the buyers solicitor returned some documents in 2022.
The solicitor is saying our only option is to complete a first registration with missing deeds, gain a possessory title, then attempt to sell with indemnity insurance (at our expense) or wait 12 years to gain absolute title. The buyer we were dealing with had said he would not buy with a possessory title, so we think this would be the worst possible outcome.
Sorry for the (very) long post, I thought best to provide as much information as possible!
My questions are:
As the sale of part was prior to 2016 would the buyer's solicitor have needed the original documents?
I have read on here about getting deeds 'reconstructed'. Would this be possible in this case? (we have copies, and an allegedly certified copy)
I read (can't remember where) that if a solicitor admits fault in losing the deeds the Land Registry may provide absolute title - Is this true?
Thanks in advance for any help you can give.