The Lemon Fool

We're updating our wills with a few minor changes but primarily to incorporate an instruction re the interment of ashes. All that seems straightforward.

It's been suggested that we establish POAs for Finance and Health at the same time, in case of future mental deterioration.We're both nearly 80.
Being a bit of a control freak, my concern is, would this give access to our financial affairs immediately and if not how is that mental deterioration assessed and the authority to use the POA given?

I have a POA for my 90 yr old sister and have never used it but having no immediate offspring makes it more difficult.

Sussexlad

As I understand it, having read and filled in the forms, it's a lot more flexible than the old Enduring Power of Attorney.

Quite literally the attorney can act some of the time, while the subject acts at other times, once registered.

It isn't active until the attorney registers their intent to use it and pays that fee, though you initially pay a fee to record the details of the attorney.
It's all theory on my part though as ours is not even fully signed yet, let alone active.

We use to have EPA's in place, but institutions are starting to fail to understand what those are. They may still be valid, but to avoid issues we decided to refresh to something that banks etc would instantly recognize.

Urbandreamer wrote:As I understand it, having read and filled in the forms, it's a lot more flexible than the old Enduring Power of Attorney.

Quite literally the attorney can act some of the time, while the subject acts at other times, once registered.

It isn't active until the attorney registers their intent to use it and pays that fee, though you initially pay a fee to record the details of the attorney.
It's all theory on my part though as ours is not even fully signed yet, let alone active.

We use to have EPA's in place, but institutions are starting to fail to understand what those are. They may still be valid, but to avoid issues we decided to refresh to something that banks etc would instantly recognize.

With an old-style EPA you could/can also have an attorney act some of the time but not all of the time. That is how I operated the one for my mother for many years.

And there is no "fee" or registration needed for an EPA.

So in some ways the old-style EPAs are more flexible, which is why I rushed to create one in 2007 when the deadline for them was announced.

Sussexlad wrote:We're updating our wills with a few minor changes but primarily to incorporate an instruction re the interment of ashes...
Sussexlad

Are you sure your will is an appropriate place for this? We had already buried my uncle before we found his instruction to be cremated in his will.......

I’d get the powers of attorney in place straightaway - while you have capacity they’re no disadvantage and who knows when some incident might leave you needing them at short notice. When my brother-in-law died recently (and whose wife has dementia) we found that not only were their powers of attorney not registered but the solicitor holding the prime documents was defunct. My solicitor is still trying to obtain the prime documents from whoever took over the previous solicitor’s business 4 months down the line with no one able to act meantime for my sister.

quelquod wrote:I’d get the powers of attorney in place straightaway - while you have capacity they’re no disadvantage and who knows when some incident might leave you needing them at short notice. When my brother-in-law died recently (and whose wife has dementia) we found that not only were their powers of attorney not registered but the solicitor holding the prime documents was defunct. My solicitor is still trying to obtain the prime documents from whoever took over the previous solicitor’s business 4 months down the line with no one able to act meantime for my sister.

What's to prevent unwanted interference ? We're both OK at present and I feel I'd prefer to wait until at least one of us shows some decline ! With no immediate or needy beneficiaries, I'm not really concerned if the process is delayed or more expensive !

Sussexlad

genou wrote:

Sussexlad wrote:We're updating our wills with a few minor changes but primarily to incorporate an instruction re the interment of ashes...
Sussexlad

Are you sure your will is an appropriate place for this? We had already buried my uncle before we found his instruction to be cremated in his will.......

I understand your point. The dealing of the ashes is already in place and paid for. It's really just a question of getting the solicitor to arrange for the ashes to get to the undertaker and cover any cost. Cheery topic, eh !

Sussexlad

Sussexlad wrote:What's to prevent unwanted interference ? We're both OK at present and I feel I'd prefer to wait until at least one of us shows some decline !

Surely if you retain the original document and any certified copies, then no-one can use them to act on your behalf?

Only arrange for a copy to be given to whoever will make the decisions once needed - hopefully one of you will be ok when the other declines.

staffordian wrote:

Sussexlad wrote:What's to prevent unwanted interference ? We're both OK at present and I feel I'd prefer to wait until at least one of us shows some decline !

Surely if you retain the original document and any certified copies, then no-one can use them to act on your behalf?

Only arrange for a copy to be given to whoever will make the decisions once needed - hopefully one of you will be ok when the other declines.

If that's how it works, that sounds OK. I'll confirm with the guy who's making the arrangements. Thanks

Sussexlad

Sussexlad wrote:What's to prevent unwanted interference ? We're both OK at present and I feel I'd prefer to wait until at least one of us shows some decline ! With no immediate or needy beneficiaries, I'm not really concerned if the process is delayed or more expensive !

Sussexlad

Any named attorney needs to be holding the actual document giving them the powers. Ours are with our solicitor and our prospective attorneys know where to obtain them if needed.

Urbandreamer wrote:We use to have EPA's in place, but institutions are starting to fail to understand what those are. They may still be valid, but to avoid issues we decided to refresh to something that banks etc would instantly recognize.

Mum had an EPA - I went to Skipton and they refused to accept the original as it was not noted by a solicitor. I pooped over the road to the sols we used for convetancing, they did me a Certified copy and stamped and signed each page as a true copy of the original, which Skipton were then happy to accept.

Upi might also consider how it is printed ... I also sent one to Marcus, who copied it, sent it back, then refused to let me act as some of the pages were missing. It took 6 weeks before they admitted to scanning one side of a double sided document.

Paul

My wife filled in the forms for POA and sent them off with a cheque for payment about two weeks ago for her mum Her mum received Pension Credit Guarantee but we sent payment anyway . Last week her mum passed away which was not unexpected . She lived in a council house and did not pay council tax or rent . There is not a lot of money involved . Does anyone know how long it takes before she gets the POA ? , or does it not matter now . Thank you for any replies in advance . Robert

SPURLEY wrote:My wife filled in the forms for POA and sent them off with a cheque for payment about two weeks ago for her mum Her mum received Pension Credit Guarantee but we sent payment anyway . Last week her mum passed away which was not unexpected . She lived in a council house and did not pay council tax or rent . There is not a lot of money involved . Does anyone know how long it takes before she gets the POA ? , or does it not matter now . Thank you for any replies in advance . Robert

POAs cease upon death, so it no longer has any relevance.

RC

SPURLEY wrote:My wife filled in the forms for POA and sent them off with a cheque for payment about two weeks ago for her mum Her mum received Pension Credit Guarantee but we sent payment anyway . Last week her mum passed away which was not unexpected . She lived in a council house and did not pay council tax or rent . There is not a lot of money involved . Does anyone know how long it takes before she gets the POA ? , or does it not matter now . Thank you for any replies in advance . Robert

My condolences for your loss.

The POA ceased to be effective on your mother-in-law's death so unfortunately that aspect is now irrelevant. Whether you can withdraw the application before the cheque is presented I don't know. You could stop the cheque and see what happens. Or you might feel that it's not worth the hassle.

chas49 wrote:

SPURLEY wrote:My wife filled in the forms for POA and sent them off with a cheque for payment about two weeks ago for her mum Her mum received Pension Credit Guarantee but we sent payment anyway . Last week her mum passed away which was not unexpected . She lived in a council house and did not pay council tax or rent . There is not a lot of money involved . Does anyone know how long it takes before she gets the POA ? , or does it not matter now . Thank you for any replies in advance . Robert

My condolences for your loss.

The POA ceased to be effective on your mother-in-law's death so unfortunately that aspect is now irrelevant. Whether you can withdraw the application before the cheque is presented I don't know. You could stop the cheque and see what happens. Or you might feel that it's not worth the hassle.

I would stop the cheque and see if there are any developments.

Dod

Sussexlad wrote:We're updating our wills with a few minor changes but primarily to incorporate an instruction re the interment of ashes. All that seems straightforward.

It's been suggested that we establish POAs for Finance and Health at the same time, in case of future mental deterioration.We're both nearly 80.
Being a bit of a control freak, my concern is, would this give access to our financial affairs immediately and if not how is that mental deterioration assessed and the authority to use the POA given?

I have a POA for my 90 yr old sister and have never used it but having no immediate offspring makes it more difficult.

Sussexlad

Please bear in mind that it takes a LONG time to set up POA, a minimum of 6 months after you have drafted it. This is because your POA has to be registered with the Office of Public Guardian (OPG) where there is currently a long backlog. Furthermore, if you make a single mistake in the process, the OPG will reject your POA and you will need to start again. Until the POA is registered with the OPG it can not be used.

Therefore if you leave setting up your POA until you 'need' it, it will probably be too late.

RockRabbit wrote:Please bear in mind that it takes a LONG time to set up POA, a minimum of 6 months after you have drafted it. This is because your POA has to be registered with the Office of Public Guardian (OPG) where there is currently a long backlog. Furthermore, if you make a single mistake in the process, the OPG will reject your POA and you will need to start again. Until the POA is registered with the OPG it can not be used.

Therefore if you leave setting up your POA until you 'need' it, it will probably be too late.

The old-style POAs were so much better in that regard. They became valid the moment they were signed and witnessed, and could be used immediately. No need for pesky registration.

So I will never update mine. But if I were starting out now I might just give my "attorney" my PINs and passwords and do it unofficially.

RockRabbit wrote:Please bear in mind that it takes a LONG time to set up POA, a minimum of 6 months after you have drafted it. This is because your POA has to be registered with the Office of Public Guardian (OPG) where there is currently a long backlog. Furthermore, if you make a single mistake in the process, the OPG will reject your POA and you will need to start again. Until the POA is registered with the OPG it can not be used.

Therefore if you leave setting up your POA until you 'need' it, it will probably be too late.

The Powers of Attorney Act 2023 was passed recently, which is designed to improve the process, though as usual the devil will be in the detail - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/step ... -attorneys

RockRabbit wrote:Please bear in mind that it takes a LONG time to set up POA, a minimum of 6 months after you have drafted it. This is because your POA has to be registered with the Office of Public Guardian (OPG) where there is currently a long backlog. Furthermore, if you make a single mistake in the process, the OPG will reject your POA and you will need to start again. Until the POA is registered with the OPG it can not be used.

Therefore if you leave setting up your POA until you 'need' it, it will probably be too late.

It does take a while, and currently seems to be about 3 months...

...I sent completed LPAs for registration in early September, Royal Mail confirmed they were delivered on September 7th, OPG have now confirmed that they have been checked and allowing time for objections I should receive the registered LPAs within 4 weeks of November 24th.

newlyretired

RockRabbit wrote:Please bear in mind that it takes a LONG time to set up POA, a minimum of 6 months after you have drafted it. This is because your POA has to be registered with the Office of Public Guardian (OPG) where there is currently a long backlog.
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Therefore if you leave setting up your POA until you 'need' it, it will probably be too late.

Probably not relevant here but I recently urgently needed to get a signed PoA registered with the Scottish Public Guardian. My solicitor fast tracked it (there is a procedure for that) - it took under a fortnight!