LPAs - "home made" pros and cons

[didds]

Moderator Message:
Topic moved to Legal from DAK (chas49)

Deleiberatelya skingb here for a possibly broader range of answers, but I will also X-post in legals...

My mum has some decade old EPA "or something similar". it was done with a solicitor in Kent a decade ago that is no longer practising, and she now lives 140 miles away anyway.

She is fully with capacity, but is forward planning etc. She isn't sure what this historical EPA covers (finance and/or health or whatever) so feels it is probably worthwhile getting legal advice. I am led to believe that LPAs now "out trump" EPAs etc so she feels that maybe rather than get the EPA understood she could instead just get LPAs done (with me and my brother being the nominees or whatever the term is).

Ive asked locally for recommendation for local solicitors but drawn a blank. I would imagine most solicitors will provide such a service but I've also been pointed at this

"You can do them yourself ... download from internet. Fairly simple and straightforward:

https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney/overview".

So my thoughts are

* just asking a solicitor is basically providing an open cheque. We have no idea whether whatever they suggest really is needed, or is just an excuse to create business for them"
* we could ask the three firms of solicitors in town for a quote, but the cheapest isn't necessarily what is really needed.
* If it really is as simple as doing it ourselves, what are the pros and cons?


The above is not intended to be a slight on solicitors in general. They just exist in the same world as mechanics and dentists and I/we have no way to tell whether their advice is really needed or a revenue raiser.

didds

[chas49]

I may be guessing here but does the fact that she doesn't know what the EPA covers mean she hasn't got a certified copy or the original?

If so, she needs at minimum to get it "back" from the solicitor - if it's ever to be used, she'll need to have certified copies.

Apologies if barking up wrong tree - and not answering what was asked....

[PinkDalek]

Deleiberatelya skingb here for a possibly broader range of answers, but I will also X-post in legals...

Maybe it is just me but a cross post from DAK to Legal Issues would have been my preferred option.

Post script: Not least because there is already a similar one there (found via search):

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2719

My mum has some decade old EPA "or something similar". it was done with a solicitor in Kent a decade ago that is no longer practising, and she now lives 140 miles away anyway.

She is fully with capacity, but is forward planning etc. She isn't sure what this historical EPA covers (finance and/or health or whatever) so feels it is probably worthwhile getting legal advice. I am led to believe that LPAs now "out trump" EPAs etc so she feels that maybe rather than get the EPA understood she could instead just get LPAs done (with me and my brother being the nominees or whatever the term is).

As chas49 said, has your mother got the original or certified EPA? If not, there may be ways to obtain it, even if the solicitor is no longer practising.


Many made sure they had EPAs in force before the LPAs came into existence and haven't bothered to change.

The reasons included that an EPA can be used without registration (whilst the donor retains mental capacity) and to avoid the immediate registration fee needed for an LPA, which looks like £110 (subject to remission) as per https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... orney-fees (in addition to any third party fees you end up paying).

* If it really is as simple as doing it ourselves, what are the pros and cons?

Rather than reinvent the wheel, here's a random thread from elsewhere that may assist (I haven't studied it but easy to find others over there, at the moment) http://boards.fool.co.uk/lasting-power- ... sort=whole

I've saved it here https://web.archive.org/web/20170314140 ... sort=whole


Again, many have done it themselves but I've no experience on the pitfalls.

[PinkDalek]

pps Registering a property and financial affairs LPA and a health and welfare LPA costs £220.

[didds]

I may be guessing here but does the fact that she doesn't know what the EPA covers mean she hasn't got a certified copy or the original?

no - she has it

But we don;t understand it!



didds

[PinkDalek]

I may be guessing here but does the fact that she doesn't know what the EPA covers mean she hasn't got a certified copy or the original?

no - she has it

But we don;t understand it!



didds

Can you use this example to expand on what parts are not understood?:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... -stamp.pdf

Comparing it with LPAs will tell you which is simpler to understand.

[didds]

and cheers all.

far better aquanited with it all and I had no recollection of the other two excellent threads provided!

didds

[kiloran]

* If it really is as simple as doing it ourselves, what are the pros and cons?

didds

I did Financial and Health & Welfare LPAs for my mum. Cost £220 to register them, so much cheaper than using a solicitor (who would have to charge the £220 to register anyway).
Pros:

1. Cheaper
2. Doing it myself means I probably now understand the documents better than if it was just handed to a solicitor
3. I could do it at my own pace

Cons:

1. The guides and notes can appear daunting and take time to read and understand, but ultimately the forms are relatively simple to complete
2. You might get some details wrong and the LPA could be rejected. For example, quite a few dated signatures are required and it is important that the forms are signed and dated in the correct sequence. Easy enough if you work carefully and methodically, a bit harder if the executors, witnesses, donor, certificate provider, etc are spread far and wide (though the same problem exists if you do it through a solicitor)

Make sure you understand the difference between, and the implications of, executors acting Jointly, or Jointly and Severally.
Minimise the number of restrictions, conditions and guidance so that the executors are not too restricted in what they can and can't do. This might be an area where the advice of an experienced solicitor could be useful if the donor has lots of specific preferences.

--kiloran

Moderator Message:
Topic moved to Legal from DAK (chas49)

[Clitheroekid]

My mum has some decade old EPA "or something similar". it was done with a solicitor in Kent a decade ago that is no longer practising, and she now lives 140 miles away anyway.

She is fully with capacity, but is forward planning etc. She isn't sure what this historical EPA covers (finance and/or health or whatever) so feels it is probably worthwhile getting legal advice. I am led to believe that LPAs now "out trump" EPAs etc so she feels that maybe rather than get the EPA understood she could instead just get LPAs done (with me and my brother being the nominees or whatever the term is).

Provided she still has the original EPA and the attorneys appointed by it are still the ones she would want to appoint there would seem to be little point incurring the expense of an LPA.

I made dozens of EPA's for people and they were great. At just 4 pages long and with no need for registration at the time of making them they were simple, cheap and very effective. Many are still being used today.

LPA's are a lot more complicated, and most of the additional complication is completely pointless. For example, they provide facilities for the donor to impose restrictions on what their attorneys can do or provide specific instructions, but in my experience hardly anyone does either.

They also need registering before they can be used, which EPA's didn't, and this is an irritating additional expense, particularly as many LPA's will never be used anyway. Although you might choose not to register it so as to save the fee, and work on the basis that you can always register it if the donor loses capacity the registration process is painfully slow - a couple of months or so - and if the LPA is needed urgently, for example if the donor has an incapacitating stroke, this delay would be a major problem.

It's particularly ironic (and makes the experience of all parties a lot more difficult) that these much more complicated forms and procedures are very often having to be dealt with by people who are elderly and mentally impaired anyway, and even with professional guidance it can be difficult to complete the procedure correctly.

The big difference with LPA's is that you can now make a Health and Welfare one, whereas the old EPA didn't cover such issues. Again, however, in my experience only about 1 in 10 who make a Property and Affairs LPA also want a H&W one.

So provided the EPA is basically satisfactory and your mum doesn't specifically want a H&W LPA my advice would be just to stick with it and not waste your money on LPA's, professionally prepared or not.

[Bouleversee]

I agree with Clitheroekid. You'll still get problems with either as some unenlightened brokers, banks, building socs. etc. don't seem o understand that an attorney should be treated in the same way as the individual. I have had a terrible battle with I-web who will not let attorneys deal online, so my husband's ISA has had an awful lot of cash doing nothing for a long time till I finally succeed in getting probate. They also insisted for a long time that my children who were also on the EPA, which was joint and several, should also supply their details etc. although there was never any intention that they would operate his account while I was fit to do so. They did give way on that one eventually, but they still won't budge on the online dealing so I don't know whether I want to keep my ISA with them and transfer my husband's to mine in due course. I haven't got my brain round the ISA allowance transferability to spouse yet. Anyway, getting back to the question, it's a bonus not having to register the PoA at this stage.