Electronic Signature Devices

[richlist]

Are these hand held electronic signature devices that we are often asked to sign actually accepted as evidence in court ?

I am often asked to sign them when accepting parcel deliveries at home and this morning I was asked to sign my name on one at Tesco....with my finger cos the guy didn't have a pen.

I am assuming everyone else has just as much difficulty as me in providing a signature that even remotely represents one's normal signature.

[staffordian]

I am assuming everyone else has just as much difficulty as me in providing a signature that even remotely represents one's normal signature.

Me, certainly. In fact I'm tempted to just make an X as it would be just as recognisable as my normal signature

I too would be interested to know how such an image would stand up in court. To me though, the key point is not so much about when I sign for something - after all, if I'd signed for something I would not be denying it. It's more how I might prove a signature was not mine, if something I'd ordered had gone astray and there was an assertion that the signature received was mine.

Staffordian

[melonfool]

To me though, the key point is not so much about when I sign for something - after all, if I'd signed for something I would not be denying it. It's more how I might prove a signature was not mine, if something I'd ordered had gone astray and there was an assertion that the signature received was mine.

Staffordian

We had that at work - they said they had delivered something and it was 'signed for' but the squiggle was unidentifiable and we hadn't got it - they didn't argue, just sent it again.

That doesn't really help I guess as it was a customer service decision rather than a legal one but it might indicate they know they don't have much of a leg to stand on.

Mel

[Clitheroekid]

Are these hand held electronic signature devices that we are often asked to sign actually accepted as evidence in court ?

It doesn't matter that your signature doesn't look like your real one, as the delivery company wouldn't know what your signature looks like anyway.

But it does provide prima facie evidence that the item was delivered to the address stated, and the mere fact someone at that address had squiggled on the screen would raise a presumption that the item had been delivered to and received by the person who ordered it.

Consequently, if the intended recipient denied receipt the burden of proof would be on them to establish that neither they nor anyone authorised by them had `signed' for it.

[AF62]

But it does provide prima facie evidence that the item was delivered to the address stated

Not sure how it would do that.

Surely all it proves is there was a squiggle made at a particular time. How does that prove delivery?

[staffordian]

But it does provide prima facie evidence that the item was delivered to the address stated, and the mere fact someone at that address had squiggled on the screen would raise a presumption that the item had been delivered to and received by the person who ordered it.

Consequently, if the intended recipient denied receipt the burden of proof would be on them to establish that neither they nor anyone authorised by them had `signed' for it.

Surely that gives a crooked delivery firm or person carte blanche to squiggle themselves any number of parcels, then place the burden of proof on the intended recipient to show that that they have not received it. And proving a negative like this is not exactly easy.

I accept though that if a delivery company or their employee adopted this strategy, it would not work for long before the miscreant was at least suspected of theft...

Staffordian

[Clitheroekid]

Not sure how it would do that.

Surely all it proves is there was a squiggle made at a particular time. How does that prove delivery?

Because it would be combined with a statement from the delivery driver that he had delivered to that address, rung the bell, and that the person who answered the door had signed the device.

[Garless]

As a retired person I get deliveries for several houses round me. I can see there is no way my electronic signature would be legal as not only is it nothing like my normal one but there is no obligation to use my normal signature just use any name you know from other deliveries and fake it

[Alaric]

Because it would be combined with a statement from the delivery driver that he had delivered to that address, rung the bell, and that the person who answered the door had signed the device.

On a recent delivery, admittedly of something that had to be moved into the house, the delivery people took a picture of the delivery once delivered. They worked for the supplier though.

[vrdiver]

Not sure how it would do that.

Surely all it proves is there was a squiggle made at a particular time. How does that prove delivery?

Because it would be combined with a statement from the delivery driver that he had delivered to that address, rung the bell, and that the person who answered the door had signed the device.

Presumably it's a case of one party stating "it was delivered to address X and signed for on receipt" with the other party saying "no it wasn't"?

Where does the squiggle on the machine stand? Presumably the intended recipient is also saying "that's not my signature nor is it from anyone who lives at the same address"?

VRD

[Clitheroekid]

Where does the squiggle on the machine stand? Presumably the intended recipient is also saying "that's not my signature nor is it from anyone who lives at the same address"?

All of these hypothetical situations assume dishonesty on the part of the recipient. Fortunately for the shippers the vast majority of their customers aren't crooks, so I would guess that in the odd case when someone does fraudulently pretend they haven't received an item they would probably just write it off.

In fact this must be the case, otherwise they wouldn't use the system.

[Gengulphus]

Where does the squiggle on the machine stand? Presumably the intended recipient is also saying "that's not my signature nor is it from anyone who lives at the same address"?

Given the unrecognisability of my own signature on such devices, I wouldn't have any faith in my ability to recognise anyone else's either. So I definitely wouldn't make the second part of that statement: if there was anyone else who lived at the same address, it would be a matter for them to say whether they made the squiggle; if there wasn't any such person, it would be simpler to say that there wasn't and avoid any "how do you know that?" questions.

And indeed, even the first part would probably be more "that can't be my signature because I didn't sign for anything at the time stated" than "that isn't my signature because my signature is never anything like that". "That isn't my signature" is a perfectly good short answer, but if asked to explain - or asked a follow-up question that implies a particular explanation - I would want it clear in my head that it was the former explanation!

Gengulphus

[richlist]

Well having read all of the replies I'm left with the impression that they are a complete waste of time for the recipient of the electronic signature.

They don't represent the persons actual signature, can't be verified, wouldn't stand up as evidence in court and can easily be denied as ever having been provided.

We might as well just sign with a cross.

[gryffron]

Do the devices themselves have trackers built in? Presumably they do as (DPD at least) allow you to track your delivery truck on a website. So the device could at least prove the time and place when the signature was made. Which I would have thought would be easily enough to prove "delivery" was made. Though obviously not to who.

Gryff

[Slarti]

Do the devices themselves have trackers built in? Presumably they do as (DPD at least) allow you to track your delivery truck on a website. So the device could at least prove the time and place when the signature was made. Which I would have thought would be easily enough to prove "delivery" was made. Though obviously not to who.

Gryff

I believe that the DPD trackers are on the trucks, not the devices as I've watched one of my packages approaching and seen the marker stop for a while at the parking place of a group of pedestrian only access cottages. It did not move up the footpath to the cottages. Also, my house is set quite well back from the road and the marker remains on the road when the delivery is at the door.

As for the signature proving anything, I now use a signature developed especially for those devices that incorporates as geometric symbol that I can make a fair fist at. So if it doesn't have that, its not mine.

The worry is not the dishonesty of the recipient, more the incompetence of some of the delivery drivers, having had to answer the door for a package not for me, or my street. The house number matched.

I've also had things that should have been signed for left in various locations, outside the house, with a card pushed through the door, when nobody was in.


Slarti

[AF62]

Not sure how it would do that.

Surely all it proves is there was a squiggle made at a particular time. How does that prove delivery?

Because it would be combined with a statement from the delivery driver that he had delivered to that address, rung the bell, and that the person who answered the door had signed the device.

Surely if the recipients says not delivered and the delivery driver says was, then it just comes down to one person's word against another's and the squiggle supports neither.

The only thing I can think for the purpose of the squiggle is as a psychological 'trick' - As a recipient I have signed for it, so now I can't steal it by pretending it wasn't delivered.

However the brutal truth is probably 'We used to do it on paper, so now we will do it this way' without thinking about whether the squiggle machine has any value.

[didds]

To be really meaningful the quiggle has to be somehow combined with a GPS "stamp" to indicate where the squiggle was made (in itself limited with GPS "exactness" contrasted with narrow terraced housing, blocks of flats etc ) and maybe even a small video via headcam etc of the household+door+signeee. Which then probably has legal reasons where it can't be done .

didds

[melonfool]

To be really meaningful the quiggle has to be somehow combined with a GPS "stamp" to indicate where the squiggle was made (in itself limited with GPS "exactness" contrasted with narrow terraced housing, blocks of flats etc ) and maybe even a small video via headcam etc of the household+door+signeee. Which then probably has legal reasons where it can't be done .

didds

Yeah, no bugger is standing at my front door peering in with a webcam on his head thank you very much!

Mel

[jfgw]

I have known the driver to do the squiggle. On one occasion, I had my hands full (I was holding a parcel) and on another occasion, the machine didn't work for me.

Julian F. G. W.