Illegal unwanted waste pipes running through my property.

[llynaj]

I posted on this topic in 2018. I was complaining about frequent leaks into a let property in a tenement building in Edinburgh. Since that post i have had seven separate leaks into my flat, two have brought down, or led to ceilings having to be replaced because of water damage. The reason i am seeking advice is that last week, i received a call from my Tenants to report a large hole had appeared in their Bathroom ceiling. As this ceiling had been lowered and plaster boarded when i refurbished the flat's one and only Bathroom it should only have been plasterboard which fell. However the Toilet was full of rubble and the floor was covered in building detritus.
On climbing up a ladder and poking my head through the hole in the ceiling with a headtorch on, i was somewhat surprised to see two four inch waste pipes running in my head space into the communal building internal waste pipe. I also observed a cut joist hanging unattached to anything. In 2019 the flat above had applied for and received planning permission for major works to reconfigure the layout of the property to accomodate more tenants. On looking at the planning application online today, the box asking will your proposal require altered drainage arrangements has an x in it, a negative response. The Builder instead of raising floors in the flat above, has clearly decided to use my ceiling space to run two waste pipes from two Bathrooms. As the cut joist is under a showertray it is likely that the shower sealant is being broken by movement of joist.
I have sent a polite E-mail to the property management company asking for a remedy to the aforementioned issues and the non-existent Fire Separation between properties. As those with Building experience will have gathered the detritus has been caused by Builder punching holes in my ceiling to run pipes and connect them to the main waste pipe. There are clear breaches of building regulations in this case. Building control has presumably been unaware of those issues when issuing a completion certificate some three years ago. I have a £500 excess on my Buildings Insurance for water damage which I suggested be reimbursed before i found those issues. Clearly i do not want to get involved in legal proceedings, however if i wished to raise my Bathroom ceiling i would be unable to do so. To be honest if the owner of the property above was a good neighbour and had not caused me many sleepless nights due to poorly maintained plumbing issues, then i would be more accepting of the situation. However that is not the case. Any advise gratefully received.

[Mike4]

If push comes to shove I think you might be within your rights to cut, cap off and remove those pipes currently installed in your space.

Not that this helps really, but it might be rewarding to muse about the consequences and effects in the accommodation above.

[Dod101]

I would be hopping mad. Check with Building Control as a starter. I cannot see the management company being very interested. Surely their remit is mostly the common areas. Get Building Control to come along and take a look. If the work has breached building regs then that would be a start. Then it will probably need a solicitor's letter to get the work remedied but I would simply not be prepared to accept the current situation.#

Dod

[Mike4]

I would be hopping mad. Check with Building Control as a starter. I cannot see the management company being very interested. Surely their remit is mostly the common areas. Get Building Control to come along and take a look. If the work has breached building regs then that would be a start. Then it will probably need a solicitor's letter to get the work remedied but I would simply not be prepared to accept the current situation.#

Dod

I can't imagine BC being much interested, unless the pipes themselves are wrongly installed from a BR point of view. This strikes me as more of a 'trespass' situation. Scottish law applies but here in England I can't imagine being permitted (or even wanting to) to run my pipes through a neighbour's space without some some sort of wayleave, I think it would be called.

Time to call a solicitor now I reckon. Find out the true legal position before making any approach to the landlord above. Assuming you can find out who they are, that is!

[llynaj]

I would be hopping mad. Check with Building Control as a starter. I cannot see the management company being very interested. Surely their remit is mostly the common areas. Get Building Control to come along and take a look. If the work has breached building regs then that would be a start. Then it will probably need a solicitor's letter to get the work remedied but I would simply not be prepared to accept the current situation.#

Dod

The management company/letting agent own the property directly or indirectly. The work has breached building regs no fire separation, damaging structural integrity by cutting joist and leaving unsupported e.t.c.

[Dod101]

I would be hopping mad. Check with Building Control as a starter. I cannot see the management company being very interested. Surely their remit is mostly the common areas. Get Building Control to come along and take a look. If the work has breached building regs then that would be a start. Then it will probably need a solicitor's letter to get the work remedied but I would simply not be prepared to accept the current situation.#

Dod

The management company/letting agent own the property directly or indirectly. The work has breached building regs no fire separation, damaging structural integrity by cutting joist and leaving unsupported e.t.c.

I do not understand the comment that the management company/letting agent own the property. Are you therefore a tenant and sublet it to your tenant? If that is so, then I do not understand any of this. Just stop paying your rent and move out.

Setting that aside though, if the work has breached building regs, then I would get the local council whether Building Control or whoever to do something about it.

Dod

Dod

[llynaj]

I would be hopping mad. Check with Building Control as a starter. I cannot see the management company being very interested. Surely their remit is mostly the common areas. Get Building Control to come along and take a look. If the work has breached building regs then that would be a start. Then it will probably need a solicitor's letter to get the work remedied but I would simply not be prepared to accept the current situation.#

Dod

The management company/letting agent own the property directly or indirectly. The work has breached building regs no fire separation, damaging structural integrity by cutting joist and leaving unsupported e.t.c.

I do not understand the comment that the management company/letting agent own the property. Are you therefore a tenant and sublet it to your tenant? If that is so, then I do not understand any of this. Just stop paying your rent and move out.

Setting that aside though, if the work has breached building regs, then I would get the local council whether Building Control or whoever to do something about it.

Dod

Dod

Apologies i own the affected property which i let as HMO.The management company/letting agent own the property above from which the leaks water comes from.

[Dod101]

I would be hopping mad. Check with Building Control as a starter. I cannot see the management company being very interested. Surely their remit is mostly the common areas. Get Building Control to come along and take a look. If the work has breached building regs then that would be a start. Then it will probably need a solicitor's letter to get the work remedied but I would simply not be prepared to accept the current situation.#

Dod

The management company/letting agent own the property directly or indirectly. The work has breached building regs no fire separation, damaging structural integrity by cutting joist and leaving unsupported e.t.c.

I do not understand the comment that the management company/letting agent own the property. Are you therefore a tenant and sublet it to your tenant? If that is so, then I do not understand any of this. Just stop paying your rent and move out.

Setting that aside though, if the work has breached building regs, then I would get the local council whether Building Control or whoever to do something about it.

Dod

Dod

Apologies i own the affected property which i let as HMO.The management company/letting agent own the property above from which the leaks water comes from.

We had a similar situation in an old tenement block in Edinburgh. The property above was owned by a sheltered housing association. We only had leaks though, not what looks like a breach of building regs. Not sure if that makes it easier for you or not. These management/housing associations are experts at avoiding responsibility, certainly as regards leaks because you will have to prove that they have been negligent and we found that almost impossible, so I think your complaint has to be that they have infringed your own space most likely in breach of building regulations. Apart from anything else, that may make at difficult to sell your property if/when you want to. In your situation, as I said, I would firstly get the building inspector along and depending on what he says, you may need to get a sharp solicitor's letter to the owners. Sorry I cannot help much further.

We eventually gave up and sold.

Dod

[88V8]

....my ceiling space ...

You may need to read the lease carefully to determine who owns the space above the ceiling. Is it you, or does the lessee own the space below their floor?

This is of course a separate matter to any breach of the buildings reg, but in any case my understanding of the (English) regs is that Building Control only have a year to issue enforcement and after that they may not be interested.

V8

[llynaj]

....my ceiling space ...

You may need to read the lease carefully to determine who owns the space above the ceiling. Is it you, or does the lessee own the space below their floor?

This is of course a separate matter to any breach of the buildings reg, but in any case my understanding of the (English) regs is that Building Control only have a year to issue enforcement and after that they may not be interested.

V8

I do not seem to have explained the issue particularly well. There is no lease, I own the property. Above the false ceiling is the flat original ceiling, the pipes have been run through the wall/ceiling occupy part of my flat. As i pointed out a structural engineer has been very clear that by punching holes in communal wall/my ceiling Fire Separation Regs have been breached. As happened at Grenfell Tower space behind cladding acted as a chimney. If Building Control is not interested...........

[Dod101]

The other way to look at your dilemma is that the pipes surely constitute a trespass. I would first enquire of the building inspector. If they are not interested, then as I said a sharp solicitor's letter is the next thing. There is surely a remedy for you but it may include spending some money at least initially.

Dod

[BullDog]

OP should check his/her insurance policy for the property. It might have a legal expenses and/or helpline extension. If so, I recommend that is the first place to call.

[genou]

I have sent a polite E-mail to the property management company asking for a remedy to the aforementioned issues and the non-existent Fire Separation between properties.

I hope you are merely walking softly. Decide what you want, and when you want it done by, and instruct your neighbours to get on and pay for it with that deadline in mind. Be aware that you are in possession of a very big stick - the flat above is probably unlettable / unsaleable without these improper works, and it is in your gift to make that the case as soon as you hire some builders to remove them all from your property. You can cap it all off and restore the fire separation on your nickel. They'll then be left to deal with their tenants, at their cost, but it will have cost you a damn sight less than doing it will cost them.

They don't have a leg to stand on, and remedying the situation should be entirely at their expense. They should realise this the moment they see the works. I doubt you can use a Building Control as a substitute for a solicitor; if they don't cave immediately it would probably be polite to get one to write to them in the spirit that jaw-jaw is better than war-war - they're going to end up paying for it anyway.

If it were me, I'd just make them rip it all out and fix the fire separation, and fix the damaged joists. How else do you render your flat saleable? They have failed to manage their contractors, and it's going to cost them. The extent of your reasonableness should be how long you give them to get it done, to your satisfaction, in exchange for it all costing you nothing, plus some decent commitment on compensation for past ( and future? ) leakage from whatever they end up doing upstairs. What they end up with in costs and lettable space is their problem.

[Dod101]

I have sent a polite E-mail to the property management company asking for a remedy to the aforementioned issues and the non-existent Fire Separation between properties.

I hope you are merely walking softly. Decide what you want, and when you want it done by, and instruct your neighbours to get on and pay for it with that deadline in mind. Be aware that you are in possession of a very big stick - the flat above is probably unlettable / unsaleable without these improper works, and it is in your gift to make that the case as soon as you hire some builders to remove them all from your property. You can cap it all off and restore the fire separation on your nickel. They'll then be left to deal with their tenants, at their cost, but it will have cost you a damn sight less than doing it will cost them.

They don't have a leg to stand on, and remedying the situation should be entirely at their expense. They should realise this the moment they see the works. I doubt you can use a Building Control as a substitute for a solicitor; if they don't cave immediately it would probably be polite to get one to write to them in the spirit that jaw-jaw is better than war-war - they're going to end up paying for it anyway.

If it were me, I'd just make them rip it all out and fix the fire separation, and fix the damaged joists. How else do you render your flat saleable? They have failed to manage their contractors, and it's going to cost them. The extent of your reasonableness should be how long you give them to get it done, to your satisfaction, in exchange for it all costing you nothing, plus some decent commitment on compensation for past ( and future? ) leakage from whatever they end up doing upstairs. What they end up with in costs and lettable space is their problem.

All so easy and straightforward. Hope it works, but if the owners of the upstairs flat ignore all the communications, what then? That is the dilemma and a likely outcome.

Dod

[genou]

All so easy and straightforward. Hope it works, but if the owners of the upstairs flat ignore all the communications, what then? That is the dilemma and a likely outcome.

Dod

They owners are, apparently, professional landlords so they must have some engagement with reality. That can involve ignoring correspondence about leakage from their flat. They aren't going to ignore the OP when told the flat's drainage is about to cease. If, amazingly, they do then they will wake up when the drainage actually ceases. The OP holds all the cards.

[Peanutte]

Disclaimer: I know very little about waste pipes and ceilings.

However, you mention that fire regs have been breached. Could you get the local fire service to come and inspect? Mention Grenfell?

In my experience they do not charge for a small investigation and writing a letter/short report.

If they say it's dangerous, that would carry a lot of weight. And if they don't, you don't have to mention it.

Pea.

[llynaj]

The other way to look at your dilemma is that the pipes surely constitute a trespass. I would first enquire of the building inspector. If they are not interested, then as I said a sharp solicitor's letter is the next thing. There is surely a remedy for you but it may include spending some money at least initially.

Dod

You are correct about trespass, i have contacted Building Enforcement and am meeting a representative at my property next week.

[llynaj]

I have sent a polite E-mail to the property management company asking for a remedy to the aforementioned issues and the non-existent Fire Separation between properties.

I hope you are merely walking softly. Decide what you want, and when you want it done by, and instruct your neighbours to get on and pay for it with that deadline in mind. Be aware that you are in possession of a very big stick - the flat above is probably unlettable / unsaleable without these improper works, and it is in your gift to make that the case as soon as you hire some builders to remove them all from your property. You can cap it all off and restore the fire separation on your nickel. They'll then be left to deal with their tenants, at their cost, but it will have cost you a damn sight less than doing it will cost them.

They don't have a leg to stand on, and remedying the situation should be entirely at their expense. They should realise this the moment they see the works. I doubt you can use a Building Control as a substitute for a solicitor; if they don't cave immediately it would probably be polite to get one to write to them in the spirit that jaw-jaw is better than war-war - they're going to end up paying for it anyway.

If it were me, I'd just make them rip it all out and fix the fire separation, and fix the damaged joists. How else do you render your flat saleable? They have failed to manage their contractors, and it's going to cost them. The extent of your reasonableness should be how long you give them to get it done, to your satisfaction, in exchange for it all costing you nothing, plus some decent commitment on compensation for past ( and future? ) leakage from whatever they end up doing upstairs. What they end up with in costs and lettable space is their problem.

You have correctly surmised that i, like every other right thinking person, wishes to avoid confrontation and the courts. However no one likes to be disrespected or bullied.
The other party has complained about being disturbed by an E-mail while on Holiday, but has realised as you state, has appointed Cowboy Builders . Clearly the infringements were hidden until exposed by their own actions a leak bringing down my ceiling.

[llynaj]

Disclaimer: I know very little about waste pipes and ceilings.

However, you mention that fire regs have been breached. Could you get the local fire service to come and inspect? Mention Grenfell?

In my experience they do not charge for a small investigation and writing a letter/short report.

If they say it's dangerous, that would carry a lot of weight. And if they don't, you don't have to mention it.

Pea.

Regarding Fire Regs it is somewhat ironic that in this property which was one of the first HMO's in Edinburgh i had to widen the front door so that there was no more than a 2mm gap between the door and frame to be licensed. Intumescent seals, door closers e.t.c.

[llynaj]

All so easy and straightforward. Hope it works, but if the owners of the upstairs flat ignore all the communications, what then? That is the dilemma and a likely outcome.

Dod

They owners are, apparently, professional landlords so they must have some engagement with reality. That can involve ignoring correspondence about leakage from their flat. They aren't going to ignore the OP when told the flat's drainage is about to cease. If, amazingly, they do then they will wake up when the drainage actually ceases. The OP holds all the cards.

They do not ignore correspondence about leakage they do send a plumber out, clearly they do not admit the real cause of the leak. The problem is water flows downwards so you only know about a leak when damp appears or water drips through the light fitting or ceiling collapses. Rather than rip up their own bathroom floor it is easier to access the leak through downstairs ceiling often.