returning 'used' item

[James]

Hi
We have bought a dishwasher online from a never knowingly undersold partnership outfit, that delivered and installed it.
After a day or two, it has become apparent that the item does not live up to its German-brand quality. It 'works' but is not what we want... none of our plates of glasses fit its limited layout options and it is very cheap and plasticy compared to our last German brand.
I know this is all very first-world problems, but the company in question is saying there is no right to return it because it is used.
But is was 'used' when that company's installers did a test of it when it was fitted.
Do we have any rights from the retailer, or if necessary under s.75 with the credit card provider we used?
It is still within the 14 days of delivery.
Any advice welcomed.

[pje16]

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights ... sD32m9r5P3
good luck

[chas49]

The statement at https://www.johnlewis.com/customer-services/shopping-with-us/terms-and-conditions (I'm assuming I've identified the right retailer!) makes no mention of "unused" although they do refer to that at https://www.johnlewis.com/customer-services/returns?dt=informationOnOurReturnsPolicy

Make sure you have done all the required cancellation steps and ask them to refer to the full policy (first link above).

The point is that you have the right to cancel under the law so ask them to point to which bit of the law says it has to be unused!

[AF62]

There is an almost matching example here -

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... idance.pdf

I supplied and fitted a dishwasher for a customer under an off-premises contract. A week later she contacted me and told me she no longer wanted the dishwasher, that it had not been used and that she was returning it. Can she do that?

10. Yes she can provided she cancelled within 14 days of delivery of the dishwasher at her home. Although plumbed in, the dishwasher can be removed. She must however pay you the charge agreed for the installation service you provided. This is provided you had her express consent to start the work in the cancellation period and told her she would have to pay. She must also pay for the return of the dishwasher, if you told her she would be liable, in advance and provided you did not deliver the dishwasher to her at the time the contract was entered into. In addition, she will be liable for any diminished value if when the dishwasher is returned it shows signs of use.

As indicated by my bolded section it might mean you take a ‘hit’ on the refund as what would a used dishwasher sell for in their stores? Likely a 25% discount or so. Add that to the return delivery fee and the installation fee that isn’t recoverable - is it that bad?

And as an aside, that retailer has abandoned its ‘never knowingly’ policy.

[swill453]

There is an almost matching example here -

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... idance.pdf

I supplied and fitted a dishwasher for a customer under an off-premises contract. A week later she contacted me and told me she no longer wanted the dishwasher, that it had not been used and that she was returning it. Can she do that?

10. Yes she can provided she cancelled within 14 days of delivery of the dishwasher at her home. Although plumbed in, the dishwasher can be removed. She must however pay you the charge agreed for the installation service you provided. This is provided you had her express consent to start the work in the cancellation period and told her she would have to pay. She must also pay for the return of the dishwasher, if you told her she would be liable, in advance and provided you did not deliver the dishwasher to her at the time the contract was entered into. In addition, she will be liable for any diminished value if when the dishwasher is returned it shows signs of use.

As indicated by my bolded section it might mean you take a ‘hit’ on the refund as what would a used dishwasher sell for in their stores? Likely a 25% discount or so,

Surely the key part of that case study is "it had not been used", making it different from this case.

Scott.

[AF62]

Surely the key part of that case study is "it had not been used", making it different from this case.

My understanding is that as you have the right to inspect the goods but you get into a grey area about how far that can go, and then whether the retailer has a right to adjust the refund to account for the change in value.

If you buy a boxed item online and take it out of its box to see how it looks is that used? Probably, but then how are you supposed to see the item if it is a cardboard box. However provided you put it back exactly as it arrived then is it effectively new again.

But what if it has packaging that has to be destroyed to handle the goods, is that used? Well certainly that item cannot be sold as new anymore so the value is diminished even if the item was never turned on or used in any other way.

[Lootman]

Surely the key part of that case study is "it had not been used", making it different from this case.

My understanding is that as you have the right to inspect the goods but you get into a grey area about how far that can go, and then whether the retailer has a right to adjust the refund to account for the change in value.

If you buy a boxed item online and take it out of its box to see how it looks is that used? Probably, but then how are you supposed to see the item if it is a cardboard box. However provided you put it back exactly as it arrived then is it effectively new again.

But what if it has packaging that has to be destroyed to handle the goods, is that used? Well certainly that item cannot be sold as new anymore so the value is diminished even if the item was never turned on or used in any other way.

I have never had a problem returning an item that has been "opened", even if the original packaging was damaged in the process. I just put it back together as best I can, and have always received a full refund.

But where the item has been used it is a different matter in my view. You typically cannot get a refund on clothing that has been worn, for example. With maybe an exception for trying it on for size.

Of course you have to operate a dishwasher to know if there is something wrong with it. But the problem here as I understand it is different. Something like your plates not fitting in it may be insufficient cause for a full refund. I would probably just buy different plates.

[James]

Surely the key part of that case study is "it had not been used", making it different from this case.

My understanding is that as you have the right to inspect the goods but you get into a grey area about how far that can go, and then whether the retailer has a right to adjust the refund to account for the change in value.

If you buy a boxed item online and take it out of its box to see how it looks is that used? Probably, but then how are you supposed to see the item if it is a cardboard box. However provided you put it back exactly as it arrived then is it effectively new again.

But what if it has packaging that has to be destroyed to handle the goods, is that used? Well certainly that item cannot be sold as new anymore so the value is diminished even if the item was never turned on or used in any other way.

In this case, the unboxing an installation was done by the vendors own service, for which we had paid an additional fee. A dishwasher being installed is not something you really get to try out for size. It was only after installation and testing by the fitter that we got to really check it out.
That involved loading it, with great difficulty and realising it was not going to work for us. Then washing what was in there, having shoehorned it in.

This happened on Saturday, so not exactly a long-period for it to devalue or suffer wear and tear.
To me it feels more like the clothing example. You buy something online, try it on when you receive it, realise it looks rubbish on you, then return it.
But JL is saying if used no return... where do I go from there?

[swill453]

Of course you have to operate a dishwasher to know if there is something wrong with it. But the problem here as I understand it is different. Something like your plates not fitting in it may be insufficient cause for a full refund. I would probably just buy different plates.

Quite often the shelf in a dishwasher can be moved up or down to accommodate a variety of crockery.

Scott.

[AF62]

To me it feels more like the clothing example. You buy something online, try it on when you receive it, realise it looks rubbish on you, then return it.

Would you buy a jumper in a shop for full price that someone had tried on in the changing room - most likely as you would never know.

Would you buy a dishwasher at full price that had been unboxed and used - probably not.

It was only after installation and testing by the fitter that we got to really check it out.

The peril of buying online.

With the last toaster I bought I took a piece of cardboard to the stores that was the same slice as a piece of bread to ensure that it would fit - it was quite surprising how many it didn’t.

But JL is saying if used no return... where do I go from there?

Ask again, and ask for it to be escalated - I have generally found that retailer will try to help, but be prepared to think about what you might accept if not a full refund.

[mc2fool]

Of course you have to operate a dishwasher to know if there is something wrong with it. But the problem here as I understand it is different. Something like your plates not fitting in it may be insufficient cause for a full refund. I would probably just buy different plates.

Quite often the shelf in a dishwasher can be moved up or down to accommodate a variety of crockery.

Scott.

And sometimes the rack spikes can be folded inwards, so they make an upside down V, to accommodate larger plates (results in plates sitting angled rather than straight up).

[servodude]

With the last toaster I bought I took a piece of cardboard to the stores that was the same slice as a piece of bread to ensure that it would fit

I once posted a piece of toast as a post card - funny old world

[jfgw]

Quite often the shelf in a dishwasher can be moved up or down to accommodate a variety of crockery.

Almost always IME. Sometimes, you have to pull the top shelf out and reinsert it (possibly after swinging out the plastic "ends" on the runners). With some, you lift the shelf up and it will click into a higher position; press a lever each side and it will drop down again. Read the manual if you can't figure it out.

Bosch/Neff/Siemens usually come with a round plastic thing that fits at the back of the cavity after removing the top drawer completely. This allows big things like baking sheets to be washed.


Julian F. G. W.

[James]

Quite often the shelf in a dishwasher can be moved up or down to accommodate a variety of crockery.

Almost always IME. Sometimes, you have to pull the top shelf out and reinsert it (possibly after swinging out the plastic "ends" on the runners). With some, you lift the shelf up and it will click into a higher position; press a lever each side and it will drop down again. Read the manual if you can't figure it out.

Bosch/Neff/Siemens usually come with a round plastic thing that fits at the back of the cavity after removing the top drawer completely. This allows big things like baking sheets to be washed.


Julian F. G. W.

I appreciate the 'how to use a dishwasher' posts, but this is not the issue. Having tried the various permutations, it doesn't work for us, something that could not be foretold before buying it.

To use an example from Which (I think), a shirt looks good online, but turns out to be a scratchy material so I want to return it. That is doable, and this should be too. Many of these comments are akin to 'why don't you wear a t-shirt underneath'.

[swill453]

To use an example from Which (I think), a shirt looks good online, but turns out to be a scratchy material so I want to return it. That is doable, and this should be too. Many of these comments are akin to 'why don't you wear a t-shirt underneath'.

Isn't the key point though, that the shirt can be sold as new, whereas your dishwasher can't.

Which says

"A deduction can be made if the value of the goods has been reduced as a result of you handling the goods more than was necessary.

The extent to which you can handle the goods is the same as it would be if you were assessing them in a shop."
https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights ... d-services

Washing dirty dishes in a dishwasher obviously goes beyond that.

The installer running clean water through to test it is not the same.

JL isn't in the business of selling second hand goods, so I could understand their position.

Scott.

[DrFfybes]

With the last toaster I bought I took a piece of cardboard to the stores that was the same slice as a piece of bread to ensure that it would fit - it was quite surprising how many it didn’t.

I took a slice of toast.

Currys were fine about it, Comet less so (yes, it was that long ago). I ended up with a Kenwood Pop-up 4 long slot (theoretically 4 slice), that we are still using.

If I were spending £400+ on a dishawasher I would take the large plates in to check, they don't fit in our current Bosch which was here when we moved in.

Paul

[swill453]

With the last toaster I bought I took a piece of cardboard to the stores that was the same slice as a piece of bread to ensure that it would fit - it was quite surprising how many it didn’t.

I took a slice of toast.

This is an online purchase. The analogous right would be to use cardboard at home when you got it. Dropping breadcrumbs in it would make it used, and cancel your right to return it (unless faulty of course).

Scott.

[DrFfybes]

This is an online purchase. The analogous right would be to use cardboard at home when you got it. Dropping breadcrumbs in it would make it used, and cancel your right to return it (unless faulty of course).

Scott.

I can't see in the thread, but did the OP look at the goods instore first? Not that it atters for the returning rules, but I could just as easily gone home and ordered my toaster via their oline portal had I wanted to.

[chas49]

Moderator Message:
Replies on the lines of "how to use a dishwasher" are not on-topic responses to the Legal Issues (Practical) question that has been posed.

Please would you all try and stick to answering the legal questions. Thanks (chas49)