Credit card claim re: bed requiring me to incur large additional expense

[DiamondEcho]

We bought a mattress earlier this year but sadly after about 3 months noticed the quality was rapidly degrading. We chose one of 'orthopaedic' firmness, but it became like sleeping in a shallow quilted hammock.When we tried to complain to the retailer we found that they have gone out of business. Their shop-space where we'd originally tested or ordered the product was derelict!

Luckily, we thought, we had used a credit card to make the purchase so contacted the card issuer. They require us to provide them with an Independent Assessment re: the product quality. They say they will refund up to £100 of the cost of such a report being issued.

Here's the problem. I found such an accredited inspector and he lives quite close by, a 15minute drive or so. I found two others but one way away in North Wales and the other on the south coast well on the 'wrong side of London'.

I thought I'd contact the local inspector and start by getting his quote. I was thinking 'Perhaps these reports don't costs more than this budget?'. However he replied to say it would be £350+vat to do! Now as confident as I am the mattress merits a refund, going ahead could incur me 350+vat-100 = £320 The inspector knows only it's 'a mattress', nothing further, no make or given value, not when the size. He knows only our postcode district which is large, but not our area nor street. Ie. he has no basis to think we are necessarily better able to pay such a fee that anyone else.

Going ahead would mean I'd have to put down about 50% of the original mattress cost, and hoping to gawd that the inspector agrees with my experience of the product. The thing is, given the other companies I checked are sooo much further away I'm not at all confident they'd quote less.
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I'd appreciate any thoughts on how I might proceed. Apart from telling the card issuer my findings what might we do? --- TIA

[mc2fool]

Have you tried contacting the manufacturer of the mattress?

[DiamondEcho]

Have you tried contacting the manufacturer of the mattress?

Thanks for your question.

Unfortunately the retailer was also the manufacturer. They were a small but locally well known, and very long-running local company.

[Clitheroekid]

The card issuer is just trying to wriggle out of their obligations by making it awkward to claim. They will be well aware that you wouldn't be able to get a report done for £100, and that most people, when they discover that, will just give up.

They are probably also aware that in this particular case they can't claim back the refund from the retailer, as they might usually do, so they have even more incentive to deny payment.

However, the claim against the issuer is the same as that against the retailer. The mattress had to be of satisfactory quality and fit for its purpose. It wasn't, so they're in breach of contract and must refund the money.

You don't need expert evidence to prove that a mattress is duff. Your own evidence would almost certainly be enough if it went to court, though if you did issue a claim I can't see the issuer bothering to defend it for such a small amount.

I'd therefore recommend writing back saying the only report you can find would cost £350 + VAT; that they should just accept your word that the mattress is duff; but that if they aren't prepared to do so you'll be happy to commission a report if they agree to pay for it.

You might also add that if it has to go to the small claims court you will prove the duffness to the judge by dragging the mattress to court with you, ensuring that the press are briefed beforehand!

On a slightly more serious note if you have legal expenses insurance (often bundled with house contents) give them a ring. Where there's only a small sum involved they will sometimes just pay the claim themselves as it's cheaper than getting lawyers involved.

[DiamondEcho]

Thanks CK, that gives me a path forward and grounds for optimism.

The fact it took them 8 weeks to the day to even respond to my claim and then saying 'I need the following [long list of precisely detailed evidence]' had suggested they were trying to shred my will to proceed from the outset.

Alas no, we have no legal expenses cover.

Can I just check one thing? You note: ' You might also add that if it has to go to the small claims court you will prove the duffness to the judge by dragging the mattress to court with you, ensuring that the press are briefed beforehand! On a slightly more serious note ... '.

I can see the wink in the eye but am unsure how much, if any, of that is in jest. Ie on the face of it what you suggest there sounds a reasonable strategy, but after my having had a rather listless night I think I'm too tired today to trust my senses on it. If you have a moment to clarify that I'd be grateful, and meanwhile I'll begin drafting the rest of my letter to them. TIA!

[mc2fool]

On thing you might do is give Citizens Advice a call on it. If then, hopefully, they say much the same as CK then at least you can tell the credit card provider that you've talked to CA and they tell you the requirement for you to get expert evidence is BS (or words to that effect!)

It'll also show you're not willing to just roll over....

[stevensfo]

The fact it took them 8 weeks to the day to even respond to my claim and then saying 'I need the following [long list of precisely detailed evidence]' had suggested they were trying to shred my will to proceed from the outset.

Yes, this does seem to be standard practice these days. I am always reading stories about similar problems that are only resolved when the newspaper/magazine/internet site gets involved. It's quite amazing how quickly the rip-off merchants respond, almost always with the usual and irritating 'As a goodwill gesture/sign of goodwill we...' etc.
Should that ever happen to me, I think I will respond with 'As a sign of goodwill, we will request that the police do not proceed with possible investigations into fraud and corruption, and we will not attempt to,very slowly and lingeringly, pull your arms and legs off.'

Can I just check one thing? You note: ' You might also add that if it has to go to the small claims court you will prove the duffness to the judge by dragging the mattress to court with you, ensuring that the press are briefed beforehand! On a slightly more serious note ... '.

The first thing I thought of was the famous 'dead parrot' sketch. "This is an ex-mattress!"

Steve

[Maroochydore]

then at least you can tell the credit card provider that you've talked to CA

Or just tell them that "a solicitor has advised me...."

[AF62]

We bought a mattress earlier this year but sadly after about 3 months noticed the quality was rapidly degrading.

If a fault occurs within six months of purchase it is for the retailer (or in this case the credit card company as they have joint and several liability with the defunct retailer) to prove the fault wasn’t there when purchased - Consumer Rights Act 2015.

So I would suggest that if they want a report commissioned, then bully for them, but they organise it and pay for it.

Also if the credit card company is being unhelpful, you could make a complaint and escalate it through to the Financial Ombudsman. Banks don’t like that because not only does it impact their complaint stats but they also have to pay for the privilege of being investigated.

[DiamondEcho]

AF62: If a fault occurs within six months of purchase it is for the retailer (or in this case the credit card company as they have joint and several liability with the defunct retailer) to prove the fault wasn’t there when purchased - Consumer Rights Act 2015.

Thank you for that, unfortunately it appears the dates/timeline I suggested were miseading.
The goods were delivered to us in November 2021
By +3months we started noticing it's quality didn't seem as expected. But soon after we were in the throws of moving house and we endured the discomfort.
My formal S75 claim went in in September this year. I clearly recall then thinking I had a one year 'guarantee' period to file a complaint. There's a lesson, if you have such a problem do not linger to act.

AF62: Also if the credit card company is being unhelpful, you could make a complaint and escalate it through to the Financial Ombudsman. Banks don’t like that because not only does it impact their complaint stats but they also have to pay for the privilege of being investigated.

That's an interesting suggestion, I was not aware of that. I'll keep that one in my back pocket in case I need to go down that route later.

Appreciate your suggestions!

Other resources I've found that might be of use to anyone following in my footsteps:
https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights ... JYx8n5KiSl
If this link expires, iGoogle for a Which article dd. 1/Sep/22 titled: 'Consumer Rights Act 2015'
and this is the statute: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/contents

[mc2fool]

AF62: Also if the credit card company is being unhelpful, you could make a complaint and escalate it through to the Financial Ombudsman. Banks don’t like that because not only does it impact their complaint stats but they also have to pay for the privilege of being investigated.

That's an interesting suggestion, I was not aware of that. I'll keep that one in my back pocket in case I need to go down that route later.

Yes but be aware that the FOS won't consider your complaint unless you've made a formal complaint to the credit card company and they have given you their full and final response which you are unhappy with, or eight weeks have passed without you receiving a full and final response from them.

However, as AF62 intimates, putting in a formal complaint tends to get more and quicker action from the company, so really the goal of putting in a formal complaint is to get a positive result without ending up escalating to the FOS.

See viewtopic.php?p=395927#p395927 for hints on how to make a formal complaint.

[DiamondEcho]

Good stuff Mc2, I appreciate your input.

I'm trying to lodge my written response, but hey their '24/7 Chat' facility has been down all pm. I'm documenting that for evidence, with screenshots, and if it continues for much longer will send them my position statement/rebuttal by recorded physical post.

This company!? [Wait until post-claim I name this household brand credit card company! You might be like 'I'd never thought of them as such cowboys' ]

[Lootman]

This company!? [Wait until post-claim I name this household brand credit card company! You might be like 'I'd never thought of them as such cowboys' ]

A condition of you accepting any settlement may be that you remain silent on the issue.

At least that was the case when I won a settlement from "a well known entity". And to be honest once I had my money I wasn't interested any more in dragging their name through the mud. I moved on.

[Clitheroekid]

Can I just check one thing? You note: ' You might also add that if it has to go to the small claims court you will prove the duffness to the judge by dragging the mattress to court with you, ensuring that the press are briefed beforehand! On a slightly more serious note ... '.

I can see the wink in the eye but am unsure how much, if any, of that is in jest. Ie on the face of it what you suggest there sounds a reasonable strategy, but after my having had a rather listless night I think I'm too tired today to trust my senses on it. If you have a moment to clarify that I'd be grateful, and meanwhile I'll begin drafting the rest of my letter to them. TIA!

As the amount at stake is not large I always think it's best to extract some entertainment as compensation for an otherwise irritating situation.

I'd therefore suggest a reply on the following lines:

Dear Credit Card Issuer

Further to previous correspondence I have now obtained advice from a qualified solicitor. That advice is to the effect that if I take the matter to the Small Claims Court I only need to prove my case on the balance of probabilities, and that a witness statement from myself verified by a statement of truth would be readily accepted by the Court as satisfactory evidence.

I appreciate that the judge would also want some independent evidence that the mattress was not of satisfactory quality. Unfortunately, having made enquiries regarding this the lowest price I could find for an expert report was £350 + VAT. I'm sure you would agree that this is is completely disproportionate to the value of the claim.

I have therefore been advised that the best solution would simply be to take the mattress with me to the Court hearing and allow the judge to examine it him/herself, possibly by placing the mattress on the floor of the Court room and inviting the judge to lie upon it - though I'm not entirely happy about asking a judge to lie in Court!

I trust you will agree that this is a pragmatic solution, and although such an event is likely to attract media attention the story is likely to provide some mild entertainment, which is no bad thing in these benighted times.

I look forward to receiving your agreement that the matter can proceed on this basis.

Kind regards

Diamond Echo

You can omit the joke if you feel it inappropriate, but I thought it was rather good

[DiamondEcho]

CK, thank you so much for that! I had drafted a letter but yours is much more strongly composed. And yes, I do think some clever wit is appropriate in such matters, so will happily use it. A) it suggests to me an element of confident swagger B) those who have done jury service might have seen that the imagined 'deadly earnest' process is not altogether like that.

p.s. The credit card company are proving very difficult to contact. As the original purchase is now just over a year ago I can't view the transaction in my card records. That means I can't click it to subit evidence on-line. Their '24/7 Chat' facility has been N/A each time* I have checked it, even at 6am this morning. Thus I will have to write them a physical letter and post it to them. You'd almost think they're trying to make this difficult. That letter will be sent with at least a 'Proof of posting', or perhaps better via Recorded Delivery.

*time-stamped screen-shots taken as evidence.

[Mike4]

CK, thank you so much for that! I had drafted a letter but yours is much more strongly composed. And yes, I do think some clever wit is appropriate in such matters, so will happily use it. A) it suggests to me an element of confident swagger B) those who have done jury service might have seen that the imagined 'deadly earnest' process is not altogether like that.

p.s. The credit card company are proving very difficult to contact. As the original purchase is now just over a year ago I can't view the transaction in my card records. That means I can't click it to subit evidence on-line. Their '24/7 Chat' facility has been N/A each time* I have checked it, even at 6am this morning. Thus I will have to write them a physical letter and post it to them. You'd almost think they're trying to make this difficult. That letter will be sent with at least a 'Proof of posting', or perhaps better via Recorded Delivery.

*time-stamped screen-shots taken as evidence.

Careful with that. When I've sent letters to large companies by "Signed For", today's equivalent of "Recorded Delivery", the delivery never shows up as delivered and signed for on the Royal Mail tracking system. This simply wastes a fortnight while you wait for it to be delivered and your proof of receipt to appear, as it never does. Better to just get a proof of posting slip from the PO, which I gather the court accepts as proof of delivery as we are entitled to expect Royal Mail to deliver everything we post! Or something along those lines.

There is "Special Delivery" which you could use, which is a separate channel within the Royal Mail. Every step through the delivery process is audited and recorded so if an item gets lost, it can be traced and found. Its there for posting high value packages such as foreign currency (cash), or anything irreplaceable. Or so my local Postmaster explained to me the other day.

[stevensfo]

CK, thank you so much for that! I had drafted a letter but yours is much more strongly composed. And yes, I do think some clever wit is appropriate in such matters, so will happily use it. A) it suggests to me an element of confident swagger B) those who have done jury service might have seen that the imagined 'deadly earnest' process is not altogether like that.

p.s. The credit card company are proving very difficult to contact. As the original purchase is now just over a year ago I can't view the transaction in my card records. That means I can't click it to subit evidence on-line. Their '24/7 Chat' facility has been N/A each time* I have checked it, even at 6am this morning. Thus I will have to write them a physical letter and post it to them. You'd almost think they're trying to make this difficult. That letter will be sent with at least a 'Proof of posting', or perhaps better via Recorded Delivery.

*time-stamped screen-shots taken as evidence.

In my experience, the cost of Recorded delivery is a very worthwhile insurance, as are a few screenshots. Having plenty of these documents ready to produce makes you feel better prepared for anything.

In France, their version of Recorded delivery included a small slip sent back via the post, with the signature of the person who received my letter. I learned very quickly that Murphy's Law combined with their approach of 'The customer is always wrong' meant that sending important letters like this was the best way to ensure peace of mind, and I was surprised that not many people used it. It came in extremely useful when I was accused of not sending my tax declaration. I was able to reply with a p/copy of the proof of delivery and a few strong, though polite words. Never heard from them again. Likewise, their equivalent of child allowance dept claimed that I hadn't sent in the documents requested. I marched to their office and put all the proof on the counter in front of them. Of course, them being civil servants, it was officially all my fault.

The upshot of all this is that when there's a problem, rather than spend hours on the phone pulling my hair out, I simply send an official-sounding John Cleese type letter. So far, it seems to work.

Steve

PS If taking the mattress to court, maybe insert a few dead fish first? ....with the obligatory Norwegian Blue nailed on top!

[AF62]

When I've sent letters to large companies by "Signed For", today's equivalent of "Recorded Delivery", the delivery never shows up as delivered and signed for on the Royal Mail tracking system. This simply wastes a fortnight while you wait for it to be delivered and your proof of receipt to appear, as it never does.

With some large organisations the post code for the mail isn’t at the office of the organisation but a specific cage in the local Royal Mail delivery centre, so the mail is ‘delivered’ to that cage (with obviously nobody from the company to sign for it) and then moved in bulk to the organisation.

[Mike4]

When I've sent letters to large companies by "Signed For", today's equivalent of "Recorded Delivery", the delivery never shows up as delivered and signed for on the Royal Mail tracking system. This simply wastes a fortnight while you wait for it to be delivered and your proof of receipt to appear, as it never does.

With some large organisations the post code for the mail isn’t at the office of the organisation but a specific cage in the local Royal Mail delivery centre, so the mail is ‘delivered’ to that cage (with obviously nobody from the company to sign for it) and then moved in bulk to the organisation.

Thanks. Yes I imagined it would be something along those lines, not some jobsworth at the company head office entrance telling the local postman "No way I'm signing for THAT dodgy-looking letter mate. Get on ya way"!

Point being, anyone sending a letter to a big organisation by the "Signed For" Royal Mail service and expecting a signature (or proof of delivery of any sort), is likely to be disappointed.

(Edit to add some missing words.)

[stevensfo]

When I've sent letters to large companies by "Signed For", today's equivalent of "Recorded Delivery", the delivery never shows up as delivered and signed for on the Royal Mail tracking system. This simply wastes a fortnight while you wait for it to be delivered and your proof of receipt to appear, as it never does.

With some large organisations the post code for the mail isn’t at the office of the organisation but a specific cage in the local Royal Mail delivery centre, so the mail is ‘delivered’ to that cage (with obviously nobody from the company to sign for it) and then moved in bulk to the organisation.

Thanks. Yes I imagined it would be something along those lines, not some jobsworth at the company head office entrance telling the local postman "No way I'm signing for THAT dodgy-looking letter mate. Get on ya way"!

Point being, anyone sending a letter to a big organisation by the "Signed For" Royal Mail service and expecting a signature (or proof of delivery of any sort), is likely to be disappointed.

(Edit to add some missing words.)

But at least you will have proof of posting. From what I remember years ago, refusing to accept and sign for a letter was not considered a defence for 'not having received it' in court.

Though of course, how do you prove that they 'did' have the chance to accept it?

Steve

PS If the "Signed For" Royal Mail service really is not working, isn't that the same as paying for a product that doesn't work? Consumer rights apply?