Probate advice - person without a will

[zico]

My brother died last month. He was severely mentally handicapped and died without a will. The value of his estate is (surprisingly) around £58,000 (all held in one bank account, and he didn't own any property or have any other assets). I want to arrange probate on his behalf (actually a "grant of letters of administration", but it's the same process as "probate").

My father is the sole beneficiary, and he's 91 years old, so I'm planning to complete the forms on his behalf.
Can I do this, or does it make it all more complicated?

If I can't do this, is it better for me to fill in the various forms, using my father's details, and then get him to sign them?

Another quick question, do I just need to complete the IHT421 form to send to HMRC?

[Gerry557]

He could appoint you or someone else to do the work. There is a pa12 form on the gov website.

Depending on your father's circumstances, he might want to reconsider if he wants to renage the inheritance. Such as IHT issues.

Sorry for your loss.

[Clitheroekid]

It would be much easier for your father simply to renounce his right to take out Letters of Administration. As the brother of the deceased you would then be entitled to apply in your own right.

[zico]

Thanks for your advice on my father renouncing his right.

More generally, am I right in thinking the application for Letters of Administration should be fairly simple and straightforward? Or am I being hopelessly optimistic?

[Gersemi]

Thanks for your advice on my father renouncing his right.

More generally, am I right in thinking the application for Letters of Administration should be fairly simple and straightforward? Or am I being hopelessly optimistic?

I did it after my severely mentally handicapped brother died a couple of years ago and found it quite easy - I have no legal experience. His estate was very straight forward though, just a bank account.

[Clitheroekid]

Thanks for your advice on my father renouncing his right.

More generally, am I right in thinking the application for Letters of Administration should be fairly simple and straightforward? Or am I being hopelessly optimistic?

I would have thought it should be quite straightforward, but it's impossible for me to put myself into the shoes of a lay person. I've been dealing with applications for decades, so I'm very familiar with the process. Consequently, the fact that I find most of them fairly straightforward doesn't mean that a lay person would necessarily feel the same.

However, plenty of them seem to manage quite well, so I'd recommend giving it a try and come back here if you get stuck.

[zico]

Thanks for helpful replies so far. It looks like I need to do the following steps.

1. Get my father to fill in a PA12 form so that I can do the paperwork on his behalf (I believe my father automatically inherits my brother's estate, as no will was left, and there's just me and my father as closest living relatives.

2. Somehow show HMRC there's no inheritance tax due on my brother's estate. This sounds like it should be simple (just one bank account of £58k) but the HMRC link the Probate form refers to is just a calculator which says that yes - £58k in a bank account means no inheritance tax is to be paid. I've printed it out, but don't think that the printout is sufficient evidence for HMRC.

3. It looks like I need to complete the IHT400 HMRC form, send it to HMRC, and then wait (a few weeks) for them to give me a reference which I can then use to complete the PA1A form (application form for somebody dying without leaving a will).

Does this seem right? Are there any other steps or complications I've missed?

[Crazbe7]

Thanks for helpful replies so far. It looks like I need to do the following steps.

1. Get my father to fill in a PA12 form so that I can do the paperwork on his behalf (I believe my father automatically inherits my brother's estate, as no will was left, and there's just me and my father as closest living relatives.

2. Somehow show HMRC there's no inheritance tax due on my brother's estate. This sounds like it should be simple (just one bank account of £58k) but the HMRC link the Probate form refers to is just a calculator which says that yes - £58k in a bank account means no inheritance tax is to be paid. I've printed it out, but don't think that the printout is sufficient evidence for HMRC.

3. It looks like I need to complete the IHT400 HMRC form, send it to HMRC, and then wait (a few weeks) for them to give me a reference which I can then use to complete the PA1A form (application form for somebody dying without leaving a will).

Does this seem right? Are there any other steps or complications I've missed?

Hi - sorry for your loss.

You'll need to complete HMRC form IHT406 as well to advise HRMC of you brothers bank account details. Should be clear when reading and completing IHT400. From what you have said I don't think any other forms will require completing but just follows the steps in IHT400. It should be reasonably straightforward from the details you have provided on your brother's estate.

Crazbe7

[Gersemi]

Thanks for helpful replies so far. It looks like I need to do the following steps.

1. Get my father to fill in a PA12 form so that I can do the paperwork on his behalf (I believe my father automatically inherits my brother's estate, as no will was left, and there's just me and my father as closest living relatives.

2. Somehow show HMRC there's no inheritance tax due on my brother's estate. This sounds like it should be simple (just one bank account of £58k) but the HMRC link the Probate form refers to is just a calculator which says that yes - £58k in a bank account means no inheritance tax is to be paid. I've printed it out, but don't think that the printout is sufficient evidence for HMRC.

3. It looks like I need to complete the IHT400 HMRC form, send it to HMRC, and then wait (a few weeks) for them to give me a reference which I can then use to complete the PA1A form (application form for somebody dying without leaving a will).

Does this seem right? Are there any other steps or complications I've missed?

I didn't have to provide any 'evidence' to HMRC that no IHT was due. I just filled in the form with the relevant details. I followed the instructions on the form PA2, which I found quite helpful. I see that I also prepared an Oath Document that refers to the estate not exceeding £325,000, which I suppose is the evidence, ie my sworn statement. I think this is prepared by the Probate Service staff (according to the PA2 form).

[Gerry557]

I see my post from yesterday has disappeared. I'm sorry if I upset someone.

[AF62]

Thanks for helpful replies so far. It looks like I need to do the following steps.

1. Get my father to fill in a PA12 form so that I can do the paperwork on his behalf (I believe my father automatically inherits my brother's estate, as no will was left, and there's just me and my father as closest living relatives.

2. Somehow show HMRC there's no inheritance tax due on my brother's estate. This sounds like it should be simple (just one bank account of £58k) but the HMRC link the Probate form refers to is just a calculator which says that yes - £58k in a bank account means no inheritance tax is to be paid. I've printed it out, but don't think that the printout is sufficient evidence for HMRC.

3. It looks like I need to complete the IHT400 HMRC form, send it to HMRC, and then wait (a few weeks) for them to give me a reference which I can then use to complete the PA1A form (application form for somebody dying without leaving a will).

Does this seem right? Are there any other steps or complications I've missed?

I didn't have to provide any 'evidence' to HMRC that no IHT was due. I just filled in the form with the relevant details. I followed the instructions on the form PA2, which I found quite helpful. I see that I also prepared an Oath Document that refers to the estate not exceeding £325,000, which I suppose is the evidence, ie my sworn statement. I think this is prepared by the Probate Service staff (according to the PA2 form).

Likewise when I successfully applied for probate following the death of my mother earlier this year, no notification to HMRC as her estate was below the inheritance tax threshold, and simply filled in the probate form.

I understand that there have been some changes recently, with different reporting requirements to HMRC depending on whether the death occurred before or after 1st January 2022, which may mean that people have different recollections of what was needed.

https://www.gov.uk/valuing-estate-of-so ... nuary-2022

Also I used the online form rather than the paper version, partially as it seemed easier to complete and partially because I didn’t need to post it.

[Gerry557]

Thanks for helpful replies so far. It looks like I need to do the following steps.

1. Get my father to fill in a PA12 form so that I can do the paperwork on his behalf (I believe my father automatically inherits my brother's estate, as no will was left, and there's just me and my father as closest living relatives.

2. Somehow show HMRC there's no inheritance tax due on my brother's estate. This sounds like it should be simple (just one bank account of £58k) but the HMRC link the Probate form refers to is just a calculator which says that yes - £58k in a bank account means no inheritance tax is to be paid. I've printed it out, but don't think that the printout is sufficient evidence for HMRC.

3. It looks like I need to complete the IHT400 HMRC form, send it to HMRC, and then wait (a few weeks) for them to give me a reference which I can then use to complete the PA1A form (application form for somebody dying without leaving a will).

Does this seem right? Are there any other steps or complications I've missed?

I didn't have to provide any 'evidence' to HMRC that no IHT was due. I just filled in the form with the relevant details. I followed the instructions on the form PA2, which I found quite helpful. I see that I also prepared an Oath Document that refers to the estate not exceeding £325,000, which I suppose is the evidence, ie my sworn statement. I think this is prepared by the Probate Service staff (according to the PA2 form).

Likewise when I successfully applied for probate following the death of my mother earlier this year, no notification to HMRC as her estate was below the inheritance tax threshold, and simply filled in the probate form.

I understand that there have been some changes recently, with different reporting requirements to HMRC depending on whether the death occurred before or after 1st January 2022, which may mean that people have different recollections of what was needed.

https://www.gov.uk/valuing-estate-of-so ... nuary-2022

Also I used the online form rather than the paper version, partially as it seemed easier to complete and partially because I didn’t need to post it.

Yes, I was surprised that no further reporting was required as you are using best educated guess to start the probate and I assumed you would need to report the actual final figures.

I suppose this might be an issue if you find some extra value not initially accounted for and you are on the threshold limit. That extra then takes you over. I suspect you could inform them and follow the over threshold procedure.

[zico]

Hello again. I'm getting stuck with the IHT205 form, because HMRC apparently says this form (online or paper) can only be used for deaths between 6th April 2011 and 31st December 2021).
But HMRC doesn't appear to tell me what form should be used for deaths after 31st December 2021.

From the following link, it says that for someone dying after 1st January 2022, you only need to report the estate value if applying for probate.

https://www.gov.uk/valuing-estate-of-so ... nuary-2022

However, the Probate application form (PA1A - for use when person who has died didn't leave a will) is requiring me to complete a IHT205 form - indeed Section 6.10 of the form says "Provide the numbers from the IHT205" form - but I can't find a IHT205 form that's applicable to deaths from 1st Jan 2022.
I wonder if the PA1A form is a bit out of date, and I can just ignore the section that asks me to send HMCTS a completed IHT205 form?

I've found this link, but wonder if this just applies to Northern Ireland. It talks about needing a Grant of Representation for the assets. Is there an equivalent in the UK?

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/publications/inheritance-tax-reporting-rules-if-person-died-after-1-january-2022

You no longer have to fill in a HMRC Tax Form if the person:
died after 1 January 2022
and
the estate is an excepted estate
and
the person was living in the UK

However, you must give the details of the assets you need a Grant of Representation for and give the extra information for inheritance Tax using the Estate Summary Form (NIPF7) when making a Probate application in Northern Ireland. After filling in of the Probate application, the details on the NIPF7 will be sent to HMRC.

[chas49]

Hello again. I'm getting stuck with the IHT205 form, because HMRC apparently says this form (online or paper) can only be used for deaths between 6th April 2011 and 31st December 2021).
But HMRC doesn't appear to tell me what form should be used for deaths after 31st December 2021.

From the following link, it says that for someone dying after 1st January 2022, you only need to report the estate value if applying for probate.

https://www.gov.uk/valuing-estate-of-so ... nuary-2022

However, the Probate application form (PA1A - for use when person who has died didn't leave a will) is requiring me to complete a IHT205 form - indeed Section 6.10 of the form says "Provide the numbers from the IHT205" form - but I can't find a IHT205 form that's applicable to deaths from 1st Jan 2022.
I wonder if the PA1A form is a bit out of date, and I can just ignore the section that asks me to send HMCTS a completed IHT205 form?

In the version of the PA1A form here (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... n_save.pdf) question 6.5 asks "Did the deceased die on or after 1 January 2022?" - if you answer YES - that takes you to Q6.6, 6.7, and 6.8 - which then skips to the Legal statement - so you don't get to 6.10.

[zico]

Great. Thanks Chas, I hadn't spotted that option to avoid 6.10.

The initial checklist on Page 1 still says that I need to submit an Inheritance Tax Summary Form, but it does seem from what I've read that this is out of date, and so no IHT form is needed - at least, I hope that's the case!

One other question I have is that I'm also submitting a Power of attorney (PA12) form so that I can make the request instead of my father (who's the next-of-kin). Can I submit both forms together?

[zico]

Right, I think I've completed it all OK now. Thanks everybody for the really helpful replies.

I'd just appreciate if someone could let me know whether or not it's OK to send both forms together - the application from my father for me to be the "attorney" and the PA1A form.

[zico]

I posted the forms and haven't yet received a reply from probate service.
In the meantime, my father has died. What is likely to happen now? I'm the executor and sole beneficiary of my father, but as I understand it, his bank accounts will be locked when I apply for his death certificate, and notify his banks.

[melonfool]

I posted the forms and haven't yet received a reply from probate service.
In the meantime, my father has died. What is likely to happen now? I'm the executor and sole beneficiary of my father, but as I understand it, his bank accounts will be locked when I apply for his death certificate, and notify his banks.

I'm sorry for your further loss, this can't be an easy time.

You won't get a reply from the probate office most likely, we didn't. We just got the probate through after about six months. It's frustrating that you have no way of knowing they even got the forms. You could phone them to check. We did, and found they had lost the last page of the form. No idea when they were going to tell us. And of course, we couldn't just send the last page again, oh no, we had to repost the whole form.

It's a shame your father didn't get time to do a deed of variation and pass your brother's estate directly to you.

Did your father have a will? I assume so as you say you are the executor.

Mel

[zico]

I'm sorry for your further loss, this can't be an easy time.

You won't get a reply from the probate office most likely, we didn't. We just got the probate through after about six months. It's frustrating that you have no way of knowing they even got the forms. You could phone them to check. We did, and found they had lost the last page of the form. No idea when they were going to tell us. And of course, we couldn't just send the last page again, oh no, we had to repost the whole form.

It's a shame your father didn't get time to do a deed of variation and pass your brother's estate directly to you.

Did your father have a will? I assume so as you say you are the executor.

Mel

Thanks for your sympathy. My father was 91 and had a peaceful death in his sleep. He was getting close to the stage of being dependent on others, which he would have hated.

Six months is a long time for probate, I was expecting 8 weeks. I'll follow up your suggestion about phoning to check they do have all the forms.

My father did have a will, leaving everything to me, including a 50% share of his house (I already owned 50% from my mother's will). Hopefully it will fall below the inheritance tax threshold (depending on the valuation of the property).

[gryffron]

I posted the forms and haven't yet received a reply from probate service.
In the meantime, my father has died. What is likely to happen now? I'm the executor and sole beneficiary of my father, but as I understand it, his bank accounts will be locked when I apply for his death certificate, and notify his banks.

Sorry to hear of your dad. I had to deal with all the same recently.

Obtaining a death certificate doesn't tell anyone.
You can subsequently use the Tell Us Once service to inform all Govt departments. You should do this ASAP as it cancels State Pensions so you don't need to repay them.
Then you can use Death Notification Service to tell banks and financial organisations. You should certainly NOT do this immediately, because, as you say, all his accounts will be frozen the moment you do it. Make sure any essential utility DDs are moved first Though note that you have no authority to make extra payments from his accounts, even if you have the ability.
Small balance bank accounts (<£10k) mostly repaid immediately. i.e. Before probate.

I applied online for probate, took just 2 weeks for the paperwork to arrive. (October)

Gryff