Completing probate forms

[Clitheroekid]

I've recently been assisting a client complete a personal application for probate.

As those who have been through this process will know, it involves completing a form PA1 - https://formfinder.hmctsformfinder.just ... a1-eng.pdf

In going through this with them I came across question 5, which asks for all sorts of details about obscure relatives.

I couldn't see any point at all to these enquiries, as the deceased had left a Will, and it seemed to me that they would only have been relevant if there was an intestacy.

My client had no knowledge of the deceased's family, and bearing in mind the imminent increase in probate fees (£215 to £4,000 in this case) I was concerned that making the relevant enquiries could take some time that might prejudice beating the fees deadline.

I therefore phoned the Probate helpline - 0300 123 1072 - and after waiting nearly half an hour for them to reply I asked why all this information was required, when the deceased had left a Will.

To my surprise they said that if there was a Will then it wasn't necessary to answer question 5 at all!

I pointed out that nowhere on the application form did it say this, and the woman said they were probably going to issue revised forms at some stage to clarify the position.

So if any Lemon Fools are delaying an application for probate because they don't know whether Uncle Bertie had any distant relatives you don't know about you can stop worrying and get the application in now to beat the deadline.

And astonishingly, just over three weeks away from the beginning of May the Probate Service still don't know the exact date in May that the new fees will be implemented - unbelievable incompetence!

[Slarti]

To my surprise they said that if there was a Will then it wasn't necessary to answer question 5 at all!

I pointed out that nowhere on the application form did it say this, and the woman said they were probably going to issue revised forms at some stage to clarify the position.

So if any Lemon Fools are delaying an application for probate because they don't know whether Uncle Bertie had any distant relatives you don't know about you can stop worrying and get the application in now to beat the deadline.

And astonishingly, just over three weeks away from the beginning of May the Probate Service still don't know the exact date in May that the new fees will be implemented - unbelievable incompetence!

I do business with another branch of government where invoices are based on returns. The returns are appallingly designed and very confusing, but the people who have to issue them and raise invoices based on the replies, are not allowed to redesign them to make them better as they belong to another department. The other department won't spend the time. Took me about 15 minutes to whip up a better form for them which I offered FOC to the other department. Not interested.

As for not knowing when things are to be implemented. same people have, in the past, had new prices applied part way through a charging period and only been told about them a week after doing an invoice run of a few hundred invoices. So they had to credit those and do it all again for the correct amounts.


But I have also seen similar incompetence in FTSE 500 companies.

Slarti

[CryptoPlankton]

I've recently been assisting a client complete a personal application for probate.

As those who have been through this process will know, it involves completing a form PA1 - https://formfinder.hmctsformfinder.just ... a1-eng.pdf

In going through this with them I came across question 5, which asks for all sorts of details about obscure relatives.

I couldn't see any point at all to these enquiries, as the deceased had left a Will, and it seemed to me that they would only have been relevant if there was an intestacy...

...To my surprise they said that if there was a Will then it wasn't necessary to answer question 5 at all!...

...So if any Lemon Fools are delaying an application for probate because they don't know whether Uncle Bertie had any distant relatives you don't know about you can stop worrying and get the application in now to beat the deadline.

I would add that, from my experience, this should be worth doing even if there isn't a Will. I entered one blood brother (the sole heir under the rules of intestacy) at Question 5.2. When it came to Question 5.3 (more distant relatives) I was only able to say that I was aware of two deceased aunts/uncles, but the existence of cousins (surviving or not) was unknown. This was accepted and Letters of Administration granted.

Out of interest, I don't know, but would guess that the date of receipt of a PA1 by a Probate Registry will be the relevant date as far as the fees deadline is concerned. Any ambiguities or omissions are usually dealt with without making another application so, if a significant increase in fees is at stake, would it be worth sending the PA1 even if, say, the final figures for IHT (Question 7) aren't yet known?

[Clitheroekid]

Out of interest, I don't know, but would guess that the date of receipt of a PA1 by a Probate Registry will be the relevant date as far as the fees deadline is concerned. Any ambiguities or omissions are usually dealt with without making another application so, if a significant increase in fees is at stake, would it be worth sending the PA1 even if, say, the final figures for IHT (Question 7) aren't yet known?

Yes, I've established with my local Probate Registry that it's the date the application's received that will determine the fee payable, so I would agree that if the estate is one that's likely to be severely affected by the fee increase the application should be sent even if some of the information may be incomplete.

Having said that, there appears to be some doubt that the fee increase will happen at all. Apparently the committee that deals with statutory instruments thinks the fees could amount to a tax, which would need full parliamentary approval - http://www.theweek.co.uk/82776/probate- ... al-say-mps

But I wouldn't gamble on this being enough to stop the increase.

[PinkDalek]

...Out of interest, I don't know, but would guess that the date of receipt of a PA1 by a Probate Registry will be the relevant date as far as the fees deadline is concerned. Any ambiguities or omissions are usually dealt with without making another application so, if a significant increase in fees is at stake, would it be worth sending the PA1 even if, say, the final figures for IHT (Question 7) aren't yet known?

This is what I posted on the "Probate - new proportional fee structure" thread on 29 March 2017:

The latest I've seen on the implementation date is mentioned here (dated 28 March 2017) [that was then, of course, but I've seen nothing to say things have changed]:

https://ion.icaew.com/taxfaculty/b/webl ... 8X1,2LSK,1

The pdf therein, annotated "March", includes this from the Ministry of Justice:

Q: When will the new fees be implemented – at date of death or date of
application?

The new fees will apply to all applications received by the probate service on or after the
implementation date of the new fees irrespective of the date of death. Any application
received within working hours of the Probate Registry before the implementation date
will be charged the current fee. Subject to approval of the necessary legislation by
Parliament, we expect the new fees to take effect from May 2017, but the exact date will
be confirmed nearer the time.

I haven't checked but I think Clitheroekid also confirmed similarly in the other thread or somewhere else on a related topic. [Edit: I'm a slow typist!]
PD
PS The question 5 issue on the PA1 has been mentioned over the years. I think I saw something about it at MumsNet, at some stage, a few years ago. Seems the funding is such that they can't come up with a decent set of guidance notes. Perhaps they should increase the probate application fees to cover such a redraft ...