The Lemon Fool

Hi,

A couple of days ago a friend had to take one of her small pedigree dogs for an emergency caesarean procedure after it showed signs that the puppy had died in the womb.

Because it was an emergency, and because my friend has used this vet for years, she didn't ask the price in advance or get any other quotes, but even so she was shocked to be handed a bill of £1500 for the ~1 hour's work. On phoning around afterwards she learned that if she'd gone to the local independent vet's practice (with identical facilities) the op would have cost £550.

I would like some advice please on how she can challenge the bill, whether there is any official regulator or similar for vet fees who could be asked to mediate (RCVS?) or whether it's just a case of caveat emptor.

My friend wasn't in a position to pay the bill at the time, so this isn't about recovering the money, it's about whether there's a more formal way to get to a reasonable figure than just appealing to the vet's sense of decency.

Thanks for any advice.

Chris

seems to me her only likely way forward is to pay and never use that vet again. Keeping within the lines of libel and slander as well obvuiously, letting everybody know of the ridiculous charges. Social media is a powerful tool.

I can;t see how she can have any legal recourse to a reduced bill. IANAL.

didds

I believe that vets can charge as they wish and charges will vary considerably across the country but also within specific areas. If the procedure is out of normal hours then the charges shoot up. Vet practices are commercial operations and just like other businesses they may offer 'loss leaders' such as cheap identity chipping or inoculations or basic health checks to get people to use the practice in the first place and make up the loss by charging more for other things.

The problem you are up against is that you can't really call this 'an hour's work' as there will have been more than one person working during that hour, most likely at minimum a vet and a qualified animal nurse (rather than a veterinary assistant who will be a person who provides care to the in-patient animals rather than someone who assists at medical procedures) looking after the anaesthetic side of things. If the animal was perceived to be at particular risk - ops in some breeds are riskier than in others - there may have been more than two people involved plus medications or things like x-rays can also drive up costs.

What does surprise me is that vets normally tell you about charges upfront whether you ask or not and especially so for things like operations and this applies even when you are already well known at the practice. Earlier this year I had to rush one of my cats to the vet (and it was out of hours) after she was involved in an accident and even as the vet was starting to examine Milly she was telling me both what they might need to do and an estimate of the costs. If your friend has any grounds for complaint it probably would centre around the failure to provide her with at least rough guidance to the likely costs involved.

Whoops, Midnightcatprowl has got there before me. But yes, I'd really have expected that the vet would have given her some sort of idea of the likely cost, before undertaking the op. Even if it was only verbal (because, of course, time was short). Springing nasty surprises like that is a poor way to hang onto your loyal customers, and word does get around. I'd say the best thing would be to visit the head of the practice and ask for a breakdown. (Did he, for instance, need to get an external anaesthetist, and did the op require a lengthy stay in expensive recovery care?) It should all be on the computer records. And then, if there isn't a good reason, then start protesting strongly.

We had a vet once who charged us something outrageous, but we paid up, grumbling to ourselves. Three weeks later he had gone out of business. The cops had caught him with a skinful of whisky while driving out to an even more expensive appointment at somebody's upmarket racing stables, and it all came out that he was hopelessly in debt and overcharging everybody just to keep the booze supply coming.

BJ

I run a very low key service business aimed at a very localised area (ie my village!).

Though I always tell the customer what my charge will be before I start any work, it is very rare that anybody ever asks up front.

didds

I wonder if the quotes obtained from other vets take account of the actual circumstances and what took place during this emergency situation. Maybe £550 would be the basic cost of a planned straightforward Caesarian, but there might well be extras on top of that, depending on any complications found during the op. Does it include the charges for recovery time at the vet's afterwards, and follow-up treatment for taking out stitches etc? Would it still be £550 if they had to perform the op at short notice, perhaps needing to bring in on-call staff?

I'd say the best thing would be to visit the head of the practice and ask for a breakdown.

Good point. At my vet your bill shows a complete breakdown e.g. cost of x-ray, cost of anaesthetic and the drug used, cost of pain relief and the drug used and so on.

I have it in my head that, in the absence of a pre-agreed price for supply of goods / services, a supplier is not free just to charge whatever they like, it must be a "reasonable" charge ("reasonable" ultimately to be decided by a court).

I can't quote chapter and verse on this as it is a distant memory, and a quick Google did not throw up anything, but maybe one of our legal friends can comment?

It would certainly seem that getting quotes from alternative vets would help the court determine what is reasonable (ensuring it is like for like, including emergency / out of hours considerations).

Of course, this would only be relevant if the vet did not have a price list displayed prominently somewhere (that might perhaps have been overlooked?), as that could be argued to be the basis for charging. Perhaps even if it was displayed on their website???

Our vet always explains what charges are likely to be before any treatment but he is also very reasonable. Last time I took our dog for booster jabs I was chatting to a woman who was waiting to pick up her daughter's dog which had been spayed, the daughter lived near London and her vets charge for spaying was £700 whilst our vet charges £120. Our vet is independent but when my cousin's lad was in his first practice after qualifying he was instructed that the first question to ask was "do you have insurance"? If the answer was yes the price increased. I've never bothered with insurance but have always set money aside in an account to cover all sorts of unexpected emergencies veterinary and otherwise.

R6

RandomWords wrote:Hi,

A couple of days ago a friend had to take one of her small pedigree dogs for an emergency caesarean procedure after it showed signs that the puppy had died in the womb.

Because it was an emergency, and because my friend has used this vet for years, she didn't ask the price in advance or get any other quotes, but even so she was shocked to be handed a bill of £1500 for the ~1 hour's work. On phoning around afterwards she learned that if she'd gone to the local independent vet's practice (with identical facilities) the op would have cost £550.

I would like some advice please on how she can challenge the bill, whether there is any official regulator or similar for vet fees who could be asked to mediate (RCVS?) or whether it's just a case of caveat emptor.

My friend wasn't in a position to pay the bill at the time, so this isn't about recovering the money, it's about whether there's a more formal way to get to a reasonable figure than just appealing to the vet's sense of decency.

Thanks for any advice.

Chris

Pedigree dogs not insured?

Mel

Rhyd6 wrote:the first question to ask was "do you have insurance"? If the answer was yes the price increased. I've never bothered with insurance ...

Both of the practices in our small town invariably ask if we have insurance and equally invariably try to sell it to us (commission?). We used to (for our 2 Siamese) but stopped when the insurer refused to pay a night call-out charge (a fairly eye-watering £200 on top of treatment) on the basis that they didn't consider it an emergency. The cat had a glass cut to a leg - no way of me telling how serious. Insurance costs for small animals seem to be spiralling - without doubt down to vets inflating their charges to insurers.

melonfool wrote:Pedigree dogs not insured?

Mel

Down to cost versus risk as always with insurance.
We don't insure our pedigree cats. Last quote was approx £300/annum for both and on average we've found that they never see a vet in their lifetimes aside from neutering and inoculations. You pays (or not) your money ...

quelquod wrote:

melonfool wrote:Pedigree dogs not insured?

Mel

Down to cost versus risk as always with insurance.
We don't insure our pedigree cats. Last quote was approx £300/annum for both and on average we've found that they never see a vet in their lifetimes aside from neutering and inoculations. You pays (or not) your money ...

Bit different if you start breeding from them though, surely?

I've not insured a cat ever, but dogs always, so that's different too.

Mel

melonfool wrote:Bit different if you start breeding from them though, surely?

Possibly, we've never done that.
However, the breeder whom we bought our current pair from only insured the kittens, and only for 6 months as a 'guarantee' for the purchaser. Didn't insure her show cats.

melon fool wrote:I've not insured a cat ever, but dogs always, so that's different too.

Mel

We didn't insure our Labradors either (gone now), same justification. I suppose they were notionally at more risk of accident/injury as they were out more, but we're streets ahead on costs. But then, insurance generally only benefits the few (and of course the insurers).

I have Parson Russells and have never insured them. Very sturdy dogs though with few known defects (apart from a genetic eye defect that they have been tested for). First one had three litters, 16 pups, at £550 each, she paid her way.

I kept one bitch who we are now going to breed from, still no insurance.

You pays yer money I guess...

John

RandomWords wrote:I would like some advice please on how she can challenge the bill, whether there is any official regulator or similar for vet fees who could be asked to mediate (RCVS?) or whether it's just a case of caveat emptor.

My friend wasn't in a position to pay the bill at the time, so this isn't about recovering the money, it's about whether there's a more formal way to get to a reasonable figure than just appealing to the vet's sense of decency.

Where no price has been specifically agreed for the provision of a service it's governed by section 51 Consumer Rights Act 2015 - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/201 ... 51/enacted

The important part is in subsections (2) and (3), which say:

(2) In that case [where no price has been agreed] the contract is to be treated as including a term that the consumer must pay a reasonable price for the service, and no more.

(3) What is a reasonable price is a question of fact.

So it all comes down to what was a `reasonable price'. Unfortunately, the only person who can answer that question with any authority is another vet, and they would probably want paying to give an opinion.

There's a list of what people have actually paid for vet bills here - http://www.whatprice.co.uk/prices/vet-p ... y-dog.html - and I note that an emergency caesarean cost £1,400 in 2013 (though admittedly it was done at 4am, which would justify a hefty premium!)

On the other hand Animal Trust quote £720 - http://www.animaltrust.org.uk/prices/ - though they are a not for profit setup, and it's obviously not realistic to expect a commercial vet practice to charge such low rates.

As a first step it would probably be sensible to write to the vet, point out that they had provided no estimate of the costs before going ahead and ask for a breakdown of the charge.

However, from a common sense point of view it's probably better just to make a reasonable settlement offer. The chances are that the vet won't want the hassle of having to sue for it, and will work on a `bird in the hand' basis.

Before getting into a dispute or even a negotiation with a vet I suppose you'd have had to have taken a firm decision that you would not use that practice again. I just mention this because there are lots of issues around choosing a vet as well as cost including:

realistic availability of other options - may apply particularly in some rural areas

and

aspects of the care provided other than costs e.g. one reason I stick with my current vet practice (who are probably 'medium' sort of cost for the area) is because they provide all their own 'out of hours' care. An animal nurse is present in the building and on duty during the night/Sunday/Bank Holidays to provide care and reassurance to in-patients and one of the practice vets is always on call to come in if an in-patient develops a problem or someone is bringing in an emergency case. I'm grimly resigned to paying double or maybe it is treble if I have to take a cat in out of hours but only if I'm sure about the quality of care it will receive and the quality of advice I will receive. I left another practice after they outsourced their out of hours care.

More expensive doesn't of course mean better. I'm just suggesting that the service provided by one vet for x pounds may not be the same as the service provided by another vet for x pounds.

EThank you very much for all the helpful replies.

My friend now has the detailed breakdown of costs (this wasn't a callout or overnight, it was around weekday regular hours) and intends to propose a reasonable settlement and see what they say.

To address a couple of points in the thread.

With 8 dogs, including 4 breeding females, the cost of insurance would far outweigh what would ever be likely to be recovered, especially as she is a qualified herbalist and treats almost every ailment herself. The vet is very much a last resort for emergencies only.

She will definitely be changing vets now. This practice has been taken over twice in the last few years, first by a regional group and now by a listed national company and prices have risen both times, so now it's time to move to a local independent.

I'll let you know the outcome.

RW