Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to DrFfybes,smokey01,bungeejumper,stockton,Anonymous, for Donating to support the site

Probate - new proportional fee structure.

including wills and probate
Bouleversee
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4671
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 5:01 pm
Has thanked: 1197 times
Been thanked: 905 times

Re: Probate - new proportional fee structure.

#39579

Postby Bouleversee » March 19th, 2017, 9:32 am

Clitheroekid wrote:
Lootman wrote:The new fee kicks in at £50,000 which is a much more modest sum.

Under the present arrangements you have to pay a fee of £215 if the estate is over the tiny figure of £5k. But under the new proposals there will be no fee at all for estates of less than £50k.

This is a very significant concession, and as 58% of estates are less than that figure far more people will benefit from the new proposals than will be adversely affected.

Furthermore, the fee is only £300 for estates up to £300k, which is a small and insignificant increase on the current fee of £215. As 81% of estates are less than £300k this means that fewer than 20% of estates will be noticeably affected. And it's fair to say that although those inheriting larger estates will no doubt be irritated it's hardly what might be described as a serious injustice to them – a `first world problem’ if ever there was one!

It always surprises me that so many people are resentful about someone getting an inheritance, even though we all surely want to try and help our children.

I don't think it's necessarily a feeling of resentfulness, and I agree that most people probably do think it's right that children should be able to inherit a reasonable sum – say up to the IHT threshold - without a penalty. But people who inherit large sums of money - the sort of inheritances that the fees will affect - have rarely done anything to merit it, and it therefore ill becomes them to whinge that a relatively small part of their loot is being diverted to the public purse.

Even so, as I noted earlier, about 90% of the feedback received for this plan was negative.

That's because the vast majority of the feedback was from those with a vested interest, nearly all the responses coming from solicitors and accountants. They would naturally want to protect the interests of their wealthy clients - and no doubt they made it quite clear to those clients that they had strongly objected - but I suspect that the vast majority of people in the UK would either approve of the proposals or be entirely unconcerned by them.


Hang on a minute, Clitheroekid. Have you forgotten about Inheritance Tax which is already punishing those who have made the mistake of saving rather than ski-ing. How many times should they be allowed to tax the same money? You should not assume that vast sums of wealth are going to heirs other than the spouse and you should not forget that if everything is jointly owned probate is not required so there is no probate fee/tax payable and no weeks of misery trying to plod through interminable forms and badly written guidance notes. In such cases, much larger estates could pass to the spouse without anything being paid at all. However, even if there is only a jointly owned house and some ISAs, which can't be jointly owned, and a few NSandI certificates. all of which might not add up to very much, and it's all going to the spouse or perhaps sums up to the IHT exempt amount going to the children (who may not get much each if there are a lot of them) this outrageous so-called fee, which the govt. have admitted will actually be classified as a tax. And don't forget that this fee/tax must be paid before probate is granted, It could present a real problem for a widow who is left with a reduced pension, a house and not much else. And if you think adding yet another progressive tax to IHT and effectively also taxing that tax is OK (since it's not deductible from any IHT payable) why stop at £2m? It goes from £4k a £1m to £8k at £1,000,001 so why not keep doubling it all the way up to the total value of an estate when it might be noticed by the really rich and then we might hear rather more objections unless they have their wealth offshore or in fancy trusts that people like me don't know about and don't want to know about because we are quite prepared to pay our fair share of tax, but it should be fair. What's the point of encouraging people to save in ISAs in case they get lumbered with massive nursing home fees only to clobber them with a new tax which only affects non-joint assets in many/most cases.

Have another think about this Clitheroekid and let us know if you still think the same.

Incidentally, the signatures on the petition were over 10,000 when I looked last night (I don't know how long it has been up and running) so there will have to be a response but I think 100,000 are needed for a parliamentary debate and I don't know how long we have to get there. I responded to the petition and I am not a solicitor but if not many other ordinary members of the public did not, I suggest that it is because they did not know. I listened for this in the budget speech but not a word; it was apparently hidden in the small print which the public never sees.

Bouleversee
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4671
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 5:01 pm
Has thanked: 1197 times
Been thanked: 905 times

Re: Probate - new proportional fee structure.

#39585

Postby Bouleversee » March 19th, 2017, 9:58 am

And another thing: I really don't see why estates of under £50k should not pay a small fee for a service. You don't get off your road fund tax or your internet and phone line charge if you have less than £50k. The present fee is affordable and reasonable but £8k where much of the value is in the house is not. If this does go through, I'm not surprised solicitors and financial advisers will find it difficult to advise their clients how to hold their assets. Not everyone has a massive indexed pension and nobody knows how long they will live.

ten0rman
Lemon Slice
Posts: 525
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:16 pm
Been thanked: 169 times

Re: Probate - new proportional fee structure.

#39597

Postby ten0rman » March 19th, 2017, 11:43 am

Well said Bouleversee, couldn't agree more. In fact, this is making me really think about our finances as in should we pass sufficient sums to our children on our first death in order to reduce our relatively modest estate below the appropriate banding such as to prevent the family being hit by this so-called fee. Previously, our children got a nominal sum on the first death with the residue going to the survivor.

FWIW, both of us have signed the petition.

ten0rman

PinkDalek
Lemon Half
Posts: 6139
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 1:12 pm
Has thanked: 1589 times
Been thanked: 1801 times

Re: Probate - new proportional fee structure.

#39604

Postby PinkDalek » March 19th, 2017, 12:18 pm

Bouleversee wrote:... Incidentally, the signatures on the petition were over 10,000 when I looked last night (I don't know how long it has been up and running) so there will have to be a response but I think 100,000 are needed for a parliamentary debate and I don't know how long we have to get there. ...


From https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/188175

Deadline 7 September 2017 All petitions run for 6 months and from the Get petition data "open_at":"2017-03-07

Also note Government responds to all petitions that get more than 10,000 signatures Waiting for 2 days for a government response

and

At 100,000 signatures, this petition will be considered for debate in Parliament [my bold]

Lootman
The full Lemon
Posts: 19572
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:58 pm
Has thanked: 663 times
Been thanked: 7015 times

Re: Probate - new proportional fee structure.

#39617

Postby Lootman » March 19th, 2017, 2:09 pm

Clitheroekid wrote:
It always surprises me that so many people are resentful about someone getting an inheritance, even though we all surely want to try and help our children.

I don't think it's necessarily a feeling of resentfulness, and I agree that most people probably do think it's right that children should be able to inherit a reasonable sum – say up to the IHT threshold - without a penalty.

If by "the IHT threshold" you mean the £325K nil-rate band then I'd say that it's no longer an unreasonably large sum. Anyone who owns a home in the southern half of the country is probably worth more than that. Which of course is why millions of people are now exposed to a tax that was originally considered to be a tax only on the very wealthy.

That's also why the government is phasing in rules that will eventually exempt up to a million, in the case of a married couple. Fair enough, although still not enough. But this new tax enables them to claw back at least some of that concession. And we all know that once a new tax comes along, it will later be increased or broadened. The classic way governments fool us is by introducing a new tax saying "it's only for the wealthy". But then somehow we all end up paying it eventually. The most notorious example is probably income tax that was heralded a century ago as a temporary tax on high incomes at a very low rate, and look at it now. Giving the government two ways to tax death is dangerous.

And the irony is that probate doesn't even benefit the family of the deceased. It's designed to benefit creditors of the estate and the taxman. To the family, it's just an expensive annoyance and delay.

Clitheroekid wrote:But people who inherit large sums of money - the sort of inheritances that the fees will affect - have rarely done anything to merit it, and it therefore ill becomes them to whinge that a relatively small part of their loot is being diverted to the public purse.

It depends how you see it. From my perspective, the money I have isn't so much mine as belonging to my family. I don't really keep a count of the cashflows between each member of my family, except insofar as tax reporting requires it. So it seems strange to me that upon death the government will confiscate 40% of my family's hard-earned and saved wealth (less the nil rate band, plus this fee).

That in turn causes me to engage in complex financial structures designed to avoid IHT and, ideally, probate itself. It's ironic that the tax that I resent the most is the only tax that I will never pay in my lifetime. It's a tax on prudence, moderation, families and death. And I hate it.

Bouleversee
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4671
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 5:01 pm
Has thanked: 1197 times
Been thanked: 905 times

Re: Probate - new proportional fee structure.

#39701

Postby Bouleversee » March 19th, 2017, 8:16 pm

Lootman said:

"That's also why the government is phasing in rules that will eventually exempt up to a million, in the case of a married couple. Fair enough, although still not enough. But this new tax enables them to claw back at least some of that concession. And we all know that once a new tax comes along, it will later be increased or broadened. The classic way governments fool us is by introducing a new tax saying "it's only for the wealthy". But then somehow we all end up paying it eventually. The most notorious example is probably income tax that was heralded a century ago as a temporary tax on high incomes at a very low rate, and look at it now. Giving the government two ways to tax death is dangerous"

And don't forget that that extra phased RNRB allowance is tapered out on estates over £2m at the rate of £1 for every £2. Not a lot of people know that. As I have said before, they are taxing the same money over and over again. All smoke and mirrors and deliberate deception. I feel a very big spend coming on. Let's all go round the world.

Bouleversee
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4671
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 5:01 pm
Has thanked: 1197 times
Been thanked: 905 times

Re: Probate - new proportional fee structure.

#39713

Postby Bouleversee » March 19th, 2017, 9:03 pm

PinkDalek wrote:
Bouleversee wrote:... Incidentally, the signatures on the petition were over 10,000 when I looked last night (I don't know how long it has been up and running) so there will have to be a response but I think 100,000 are needed for a parliamentary debate and I don't know how long we have to get there. ...


From https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/188175

Deadline 7 September 2017 All petitions run for 6 months and from the Get petition data "open_at":"2017-03-07

Also note Government responds to all petitions that get more than 10,000 signatures Waiting for 2 days for a government response

and

At 100,000 signatures, this petition will be considered for debate in Parliament [my bold]


But since the new charges are due to come in sometime in May (unless there is another U-turn) we haven't got 6 months in reality, have we?

Bouleversee
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4671
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 5:01 pm
Has thanked: 1197 times
Been thanked: 905 times

Re: Probate - new proportional fee structure.

#39716

Postby Bouleversee » March 19th, 2017, 9:23 pm

ten0rman wrote:Well said Bouleversee, couldn't agree more. In fact, this is making me really think about our finances as in should we pass sufficient sums to our children on our first death in order to reduce our relatively modest estate below the appropriate banding such as to prevent the family being hit by this so-called fee. Previously, our children got a nominal sum on the first death with the residue going to the survivor.

FWIW, both of us have signed the petition.

ten0rman

It's difficult to know what to do. If you do that and leave the exempt amount to your children, you would of course lose the ability to carry forward the deceased's IHT allowance to the second death, by which time it might be a larger sum but then again it might not. And of course one can give away money and hope to live for 7 years, which might be tempting providence. My children and I are still debating whether to vary my late husband's will or not but in the meantime we are going to get our probate application in asap; almost finished. When any of us will get our hands on the money, a lot of which is sitting in cash earning no interest in equity ISAs or cash ISAs, remains to be seen; the cash ISA people told me that once the ISA wrapper came off on the date of my husband's death, even the peanuts interest it was earning is no longer credited, which seems very odd.

PinkDalek
Lemon Half
Posts: 6139
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 1:12 pm
Has thanked: 1589 times
Been thanked: 1801 times

Re: Probate - new proportional fee structure.

#42102

Postby PinkDalek » March 29th, 2017, 12:54 pm

Bouleversee wrote:But since the new charges are due to come in sometime in May (unless there is another U-turn) we haven't got 6 months in reality, have we?


Clearly not.

The latest I've seen on the implementation date is mentioned here (dated 28 March 2017):

https://ion.icaew.com/taxfaculty/b/webl ... 8X1,2LSK,1

The pdf therein, annotated "March", includes this from the Ministry of Justice:

Q: When will the new fees be implemented – at date of death or date of
application?

The new fees will apply to all applications received by the probate service on or after the
implementation date of the new fees irrespective of the date of death. Any application
received within working hours of the Probate Registry before the implementation date
will be charged the current fee. Subject to approval of the necessary legislation by
Parliament, we expect the new fees to take effect from May 2017, but the exact date will
be confirmed nearer the time.

Bouleversee
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4671
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 5:01 pm
Has thanked: 1197 times
Been thanked: 905 times

Re: Probate - new proportional fee structure.

#42109

Postby Bouleversee » March 29th, 2017, 1:37 pm

Well, my probate application has been sent so presumably they can't ask for more than the £215 I sent. As there is such a backlog at HMRC over the IHT bit, even though there should be none to pay in our case on the first death, I have no idea when I will get a response. In the meantime, the petition has clocked up over 23 thousand signatures but no response as yet. We need 100k to get a debate in Parliament so I hope you have all done or will do your bit. Unfortunately, no support from my MP (Cheryl Gillan) who thought it was fair. I still find that nobody I speak to about the increase had heard about it, so perhaps they will get away with it, but still worth a fight. Spread the word.

melonfool
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2939
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:18 am
Has thanked: 1365 times
Been thanked: 795 times

Re: Probate - new proportional fee structure.

#42345

Postby melonfool » March 30th, 2017, 11:41 am

Bouleversee wrote:Well, my probate application has been sent so presumably they can't ask for more than the £215 I sent. As there is such a backlog at HMRC over the IHT bit, even though there should be none to pay in our case on the first death, I have no idea when I will get a response. In the meantime, the petition has clocked up over 23 thousand signatures but no response as yet. We need 100k to get a debate in Parliament so I hope you have all done or will do your bit. Unfortunately, no support from my MP (Cheryl Gillan) who thought it was fair. I still find that nobody I speak to about the increase had heard about it, so perhaps they will get away with it, but still worth a fight. Spread the word.


You need 100,000 signatures to be *considered for a debate in Parliament*, it's not a given and considering the legislation was already out for consultation I doubt very much they will agree to debate it again.

Sorry.

Mel

Bouleversee
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4671
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 5:01 pm
Has thanked: 1197 times
Been thanked: 905 times

Re: Probate - new proportional fee structure.

#42356

Postby Bouleversee » March 30th, 2017, 12:08 pm

melonfool wrote:
Bouleversee wrote:Well, my probate application has been sent so presumably they can't ask for more than the £215 I sent. As there is such a backlog at HMRC over the IHT bit, even though there should be none to pay in our case on the first death, I have no idea when I will get a response. In the meantime, the petition has clocked up over 23 thousand signatures but no response as yet. We need 100k to get a debate in Parliament so I hope you have all done or will do your bit. Unfortunately, no support from my MP (Cheryl Gillan) who thought it was fair. I still find that nobody I speak to about the increase had heard about it, so perhaps they will get away with it, but still worth a fight. Spread the word.


You need 100,000 signatures to be *considered for a debate in Parliament*, it's not a given and considering the legislation was already out for consultation I doubt very much they will agree to debate it again.

Sorry.

Mel


I don't agree with you, Mel. I think that's a bit of a negative attitude. I think that it is significant that the petition has already got way above the 10,000 required for a response from govt. (I think it was over 27k last time I looked and still rising) but nothing has been heard. Admittedly, they have been frying bigger fish. Forgive me if I've mentioned this before, but I had to fight for several years before wives stopped having their savings interest or any other investment income taxed at their husbands' marginal rate. I could have given up but aren't you glad I didn't? Unfortunately, the change came too late to prevent my having to sell the flat I had bought some years before my marriage and let furnished after we started a family and needed more space. This is going back many years to when taxes were very high and it just so happened that my husband's largely commission based earnings were also quite high for a brief period. It meant that there was little left of any profits from the letting to pay for roof repairs or whatever the following year and it all became a pointless exercise. The same applied to dividends from unit trusts bought long before my marriage. I doubt if many would think that was fair and the new probate tax is equally unfair and unreasonable. Some things are worth fighting for. If they don't rethink this, I think the govt. will suffer consequences.

melonfool
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2939
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:18 am
Has thanked: 1365 times
Been thanked: 795 times

Re: Probate - new proportional fee structure.

#42379

Postby melonfool » March 30th, 2017, 1:45 pm

Bouleversee

I'm not clear which bit you don't agree with. I essentially said two things:

1) it's not 100k signatures "to be debated", it's 100k signatures to be "considered fro debate" - so, that's FACT, it's irrelevant whether you disagree.

2) the second was that I think they will not debate it as they will say it already went to consultation. It *did* go to consultation (not all new laws go through consultation), the fact that you know lots of people who don't know about does not change that. And I know that this is one of the common reasons they turn down debates where petitions have reached the threshold.

See here: https://petition.parliament.uk/help

"we may decide not to put a petition forward for debate if the issue has already been debated recently "

You may think it negative - I am being realistic.

More negativity here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-p ... s-37685894

"At best, a minister will politely tell you that the government notes your concerns, and then give a justification of current government policy."


"I had to fight for several years before wives stopped having their savings interest or any other investment income taxed at their husbands' marginal rate." - well, that's great.

"I could have given up but aren't you glad I didn't?" - well, for you, yes. It has zero effect on me, I've not been stupid enough to get married!

"I doubt if many would think that was fair and the new probate tax is equally unfair and unreasonable. " - actually, I think it is entirely reasonable. Obviously I can think that as it will never affect me. If my assets become so large as to attract a high fee I won't care, because I will be dead. If anyone else's assets attract the large fee and they are left to me then I will just be grateful for what I inherit, which will still be significant. I don't care about the fees a jot I'm afraid. And, no, I won't be signing the petition because I don't agree with it.

I cannot get exercised about very wealthy people being charged what is, essentially, a very small fee for the govt to do something. I get more worked up about how poor people are treated, quite frankly.

"If they don't rethink this, I think the govt. will suffer consequences." - yes, of course. All the posh rich people will......what? Rise up and vote Labour? Hahahaha! Labour; the rich man's friend, who knew!

Mel

Urbandreamer
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3338
Joined: December 7th, 2016, 9:09 pm
Has thanked: 381 times
Been thanked: 1107 times

Re: Probate - new proportional fee structure.

#42423

Postby Urbandreamer » March 30th, 2017, 3:38 pm

melonfool wrote:I cannot get exercised about very wealthy people being charged what is, essentially, a very small fee for the govt to do something. I get more worked up about how poor people are treated, quite frankly.


I'm afraid that I do get exercised by any minority being singled out by the government, even the wealthy.

There was a interesting podcast, MoneyBox death taxes 22/3, looking into the ryme and reason of such things.

For what it's worth Labour came up with a social care tax labled a "death tax" by the Conservatives which would be used to pay for the care of the elderly and gathered upon death with the wealthy paying more than the poor. Arguably so far so good.

What the Conservtives have done is change probate "fees" which will now be a tax or levey rather than a fee and will be used to pay for whatever the government chooses.

It should also be pointed out that even if you can give your entire estate to a registered charity, your estate will still pay a "fee" based upon how big it is. So in effect charitable gifts on death will now be taxed. I can imagine many people disliking that as a point of principle.

BTW it's well worth listening to that podcast if only to hear that nobody was willing to defend this change.

Kantwebefriends
Lemon Slice
Posts: 366
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 4:02 pm
Has thanked: 26 times
Been thanked: 113 times

Re: Probate - new proportional fee structure.

#42425

Postby Kantwebefriends » March 30th, 2017, 3:47 pm

It's rather odd how our wealth taxes work. The probate fees are clearly a tax on the transfer of wealth, as are stamp duties on property, and as is Inheritance Tax. Council Tax is a tax on housing wealth. CGT is, in the absence of honest index-linking, a tax on wealth too. There must be other wealth taxes that have not sprung to mind.

Bouleversee
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4671
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 5:01 pm
Has thanked: 1197 times
Been thanked: 905 times

Re: Probate - new proportional fee structure.

#42432

Postby Bouleversee » March 30th, 2017, 3:57 pm

melonfool wrote:Bouleversee

I'm not clear which bit you don't agree with. I essentially said two things:

1) it's not 100k signatures "to be debated", it's 100k signatures to be "considered fro debate" - so, that's FACT, it's irrelevant whether you disagree.

2) the second was that I think they will not debate it as they will say it already went to consultation. It *did* go to consultation (not all new laws go through consultation), the fact that you know lots of people who don't know about does not change that. And I know that this is one of the common reasons they turn down debates where petitions have reached the threshold.

See here: https://petition.parliament.uk/help

"we may decide not to put a petition forward for debate if the issue has already been debated recently "

You may think it negative - I am being realistic.

More negativity here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-p ... s-37685894

"At best, a minister will politely tell you that the government notes your concerns, and then give a justification of current government policy."


"I had to fight for several years before wives stopped having their savings interest or any other investment income taxed at their husbands' marginal rate." - well, that's great.

"I could have given up but aren't you glad I didn't?" - well, for you, yes. It has zero effect on me, I've not been stupid enough to get married!

"I doubt if many would think that was fair and the new probate tax is equally unfair and unreasonable. " - actually, I think it is entirely reasonable. Obviously I can think that as it will never affect me. If my assets become so large as to attract a high fee I won't care, because I will be dead. If anyone else's assets attract the large fee and they are left to me then I will just be grateful for what I inherit, which will still be significant. I don't care about the fees a jot I'm afraid. And, no, I won't be signing the petition because I don't agree with it.

I cannot get exercised about very wealthy people being charged what is, essentially, a very small fee for the govt to do something. I get more worked up about how poor people are treated, quite frankly.

"If they don't rethink this, I think the govt. will suffer consequences." - yes, of course. All the posh rich people will......what? Rise up and vote Labour? Hahahaha! Labour; the rich man's friend, who knew!

Mel


It was the second, Mel, but you may be proved right.

I am surprised that you think the way the fees escalate, as shown in the following article, is reasonable or that you think them small, but you are entitled to your opinion.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/tax/inherita ... apply-may/

I was married to a wonderful, courageous, kind man for almost 50 years until he died in November and felt privileged to have nursed him through cancer, Parkinson's and umpteen other unpleasant conditions for 22 of them. Call me stupid if you like.

Lootman
The full Lemon
Posts: 19572
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:58 pm
Has thanked: 663 times
Been thanked: 7015 times

Re: Probate - new proportional fee structure.

#42441

Postby Lootman » March 30th, 2017, 4:36 pm

Kantwebefriends wrote:It's rather odd how our wealth taxes work. The probate fees are clearly a tax on the transfer of wealth, as are stamp duties on property, and as is Inheritance Tax. Council Tax is a tax on housing wealth. CGT is, in the absence of honest index-linking, a tax on wealth too. There must be other wealth taxes that have not sprung to mind.

None of those are really wealth taxes in the true sense of that phrase. They are all applied when wealth passes from one person to another, and that gives them more in common with transaction-based taxes such as income tax and VAT. About the only transfers of wealth that doesn't get taxed, at least at the time and if you live long enough afterwards, are gifts.

A true wealth tax would be much worse. The government would quite simply tot up your net worth each year and charge you a percentage of it. Your example of council tax is probably the closest to that - it's a tax based on the assessed value of the home that you live in. And the problem with such wealth taxes is that the fact that you own a valuable asset doesn't mean that you have the cash to pay a tax on its value. Whereas transactions do at least generate some cash although, in the case of stamp duty, it is the buyer who pays it and not the person getting cash.

This new probate tax is just another shot at taxing death and the sad thing is that a lot of people and voters harbour a visceral dislike of inheritance, considering it "money for nothing". And therefore they stay silent on this change, as evidenced by the relative small amount of signatures to this petition, and the general absence of outrage being expressed generally. Maybe they even rather smugly and enviously like it.

I'm outraged, however. I don't really see inheritance as being a transfer of wealth in the same way, because it's merely the movement of wealth within a family, which is routine in any event. My strategy to avoid this new probate tax is really just a variation on my strategy for avoiding inheritance tax. But with an added component. I intend to avoid probate being necessary at all, via gifts, loans, joint tenancies, designated beneficiaries and other devices. If a creditor wants to initiate probate on my estate and pay the fee, let them.

Clitheroekid
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2901
Joined: November 6th, 2016, 9:58 pm
Has thanked: 1417 times
Been thanked: 3846 times

Re: Probate - new proportional fee structure.

#42508

Postby Clitheroekid » March 30th, 2017, 10:30 pm

Lootman wrote:the sad thing is that a lot of people and voters harbour a visceral dislike of inheritance, considering it "money for nothing".

It's probably considered as "money for nothing" for the very good reason that it is money for nothing.

In the vast majority of cases the beneficiaries of an estate have done nothing to `earn' the inheritance, and it's just like a lottery win, the main difference being that they didn't even have to buy a ticket.

melonfool
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2939
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:18 am
Has thanked: 1365 times
Been thanked: 795 times

Re: Probate - new proportional fee structure.

#42526

Postby melonfool » March 31st, 2017, 7:09 am

I read Lootman's comment last night and couldn't really understand it.

Obviously an inheritance is money for nothing. Or, money for just being born lucky maybe?

I don't think it's as cut and dried as "some people have money and shouldn't be taxed on it, those who think they should be taxed have no money and hate people who do".

Ironically my socialist parents have ended up quite wealthy. If they died tomorrow and split their estate three ways (they will not do the latter, I have no idea about the former) all three of us could retire. But I *still* think the money should be taxed, and I have no issue with the probate fees, of which I expect we would pay the highest rate.

Mel

Urbandreamer
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3338
Joined: December 7th, 2016, 9:09 pm
Has thanked: 381 times
Been thanked: 1107 times

Re: Probate - new proportional fee structure.

#42534

Postby Urbandreamer » March 31st, 2017, 8:44 am

Clitheroekid wrote:In the vast majority of cases the beneficiaries of an estate have done nothing to `earn' the inheritance, and it's just like a lottery win, ....


Actually probate and IHT is paid by "someone" before the estate is inherited or released to pay the fee/tax. Banks are usually good enough to release cash to pay it but assets can not be sold to produce cash if needed to pay it.

Re lottery:
You mean like being born to parents who work or in some other means make money.
Or from a different point of view having money to leave instead of spending it and relying on the state or your children to support your old age?

Interesting concept that the state is at least as worthy if not more so than your children or charities. Especially given that unlike the children or charities it can send "the boys" around to help itself to what it feels is it's rightful share and set's itself up as first in line. Sorry but I regard tax as a protection racket.

Let us be clear, there is nothing wrong or illegal in writing the state in as a beneficiary in your will. However regardless of if you do so or not, it seems that the UK government will help itself when you die.

It is stunningly difficult to do as Lootman suggests and manage your estate to avoid probate. As near as I can tell, if you have ANYTHING in your sole name, ie an ISA, and can support yourself, then probate will be required.

Hence tax will be due because you died.

Others will have to pay it for you, but it must be paid.

Insurance companies actually sell products to people so that these costs can be met before probate is granted. Personally I see such facts as just another reason to question why we should financially suport the state rather than seek to avoid doing so.

We all will die one day. If you care about those that you will leave then you should try to make it as easy as possible for them. Make sure that they know or can easily find your accounts and assets. Avoid IHT if you wish to. Avoid probate if you can. But above all else make it easy for them if you care for them.

Do it as soon as possible, you might fail to miss the bus.


Return to “Legal Issues (Practical)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 90 guests