US Extradition

[pje16]

So from a US perspective our justice system is excessively punitive in cases where clearly there was no intent to cause harm.

Perhaps “where clearly there was no intent to cause harm”
BUT

https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/ ... tates.html
We let far too many off with trivial sentences and suspended ones

[quelquod]

In the US almost nobody goes to prison for accidentally killing someone with a vehicle, unless they were drunk. But in the UK you can easily get a custodial sentence for that. So from a US perspective our justice system is excessively punitive in cases where clearly there was no intent to cause harm.

In many ways the US revenge-based justice system seems grossly unfair to most civilised nations however in this case they have things more nearly right. Road traffic offence punishments here are dramatically skewed towards severity where momentary inattention is generally dealt with far more harshly than premeditated acts of assault, burglary and vandalism. I’ve 60 years of undiscovered crime but I’ve numerous friends who have paid £hundreds for minor traffic infringements causing no harm while every week our local newspaper records tens of these latter crimes rewarded with either admonishments or very minor sentences.

[pje16]

Anne Sacoolas has been sentenced to eight months in prison, suspended for 12 months.
She has also been disqualified from driving for 12 months.

what a joke
Our justice system is absolutely futile
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/63748369

[AF62]

Anne Sacoolas has been sentenced to eight months in prison, suspended for 12 months.
She has also been disqualified from driving for 12 months.

what a joke
Our justice system is absolutely futile
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/63748369

The suspended sentence?

Not unusual for killing someone and being convicted of careless driving. From a random selection of news articles -

https://www.cps.gov.uk/cps/news/pc-sent ... ss-driving

https://www.lincolnshireworld.com/news/ ... on-3869735

https://road.cc/content/news/suspended- ... ver-287767

https://www.sthelensstar.co.uk/news/202 ... sentenced/

[swill453]

Anne Sacoolas has been sentenced to eight months in prison, suspended for 12 months.
She has also been disqualified from driving for 12 months.

what a joke
Our justice system is absolutely futile
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/63748369

I think that's a pretty average sentence for the offence in question. Looking at the sentencing guidelines, the minimum sentence is a "Medium level community order". What she got seems quite far above that.

The BBC article you linked to says "a community punishment or suspended jail sentence is often given".

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/of ... e-driving/

Scott.

[AF62]

Looking at the sentencing guidelines, the minimum sentence is a "Medium level community order". What she got seems quite far above that.

Is it?

A suspended sentence for someone who never intends returning to the UK is effectively nothing at all.

[swill453]

Looking at the sentencing guidelines, the minimum sentence is a "Medium level community order". What she got seems quite far above that.

Is it?

It is, in our sentencing hierarchy.

Scott.

[pje16]

Anne Sacoolas has been sentenced to eight months in prison, suspended for 12 months.
She has also been disqualified from driving for 12 months.

what a joke
Our justice system is absolutely futile
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/63748369

So far no-one agrees
that's fine
but I bet if it was me I would be inside now (I have no previous btw)

[Lootman]

I think that's a pretty average sentence for the offence in question. Looking at the sentencing guidelines, the minimum sentence is a "Medium level community order". What she got seems quite far above that.

The BBC article you linked to says "a community punishment or suspended jail sentence is often given".

Community service wasn't really an option in this case, unless that community service happened in the US, which rather negates the purpose of it.

I can see why you might think that a suspended prison sentence is more serious than a community service order. Although in this case both are rather meaningless. A friend of mine is a probation officer and he told me once that some offenders actually prefer a prison sentence to the usual alternative of probation and community service. The reason being that a period of probation is typically about three times as long as an equivalent custodial sentence, and that they just want to be done with the sentence as soon as possible.

In my view prison is not usually an appropriate punishment for being at fault in a road accident. Custodial sentences deter very deliberate acts like robbing a bank. But nobody sets out in the morning intending to accidentally kill someone with their vehicle. What really stinks in this case is of course that she legged it.

Finally bear in mind that any kind of criminal record can have a profound effect on a person in the United States in terms of prospects for employment, housing, holding public office etc., and that might be the real punishment here. And this guilty verdict will help in any future civil case.

[pje16]

What really stinks in this case is of course that she legged it.

100% agreed, and the extremely lenient sentence shows others they can do the same

[swill453]

I was pleased to see the victim's family accepted that justice had been done. No doubt they'd been forewarned what sentence to expect in a case like this.

Scott.

[dionaeamuscipula]

Anne Sacoolas has been sentenced to eight months in prison, suspended for 12 months.
She has also been disqualified from driving for 12 months.

what a joke
Our justice system is absolutely futile
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/63748369

So far no-one agrees
that's fine
but I bet if it was me I would be inside now (I have no previous btw)

In identical circumstances you would have got the same sentence. If all factors were the same other than the fact that you had not legged it to the USA, then you would have got a lesser sentence. I can be pretty sure about this having read the sentencing guidelines, which give judges little room for manouvre.

Her conviction is for careless driving not dangerous driving. She wasn't drunk, she wasn't speeding, she wasn't on her mobile. She had a licence, insurance and her car was in good order. I imagine she had no previous convictions. She stopped. She eventually pleaded guilty. She does not represent an ongoing danger to the public.

I'm sure she is very sorry that the boy died. Probably a fair bit of her sorrow is associated with the rightful indignation and the unacceptable death threats that have followed her ridiculous and entitled (by which I mean I can, so I will) flight from the UK and claim of diplomatic immunity. Her "genuine remorse" sounds to me more like the output from a highly skilled legal team than a raw emotion. She deserves the ruin of her reputation and the guilt that I hope she genuinely feels at causing the death of a blameless young man.

DM

[pje16]

OK you make some very good points
I am just trying to feel how it would be if he had been my son

[didds]

It later transpired that she may not have been a non-working spouse but might have actually been still employed by the US government, in which case that exclusion would not have applied.

Indeed - but of course that comment by the US authorities could just be a mandy rice-davies moment ... as once they make that call who is able to contest it/prove otherwise?

didds

[didds]

In identical circumstances you would have got the same sentence. If all factors were the same other than the fact that you had not legged it to the USA, then you would have got a lesser sentence. I can be pretty sure about this having read the sentencing guidelines, which give judges little room for manoeuvre.

Yup. I strongly recommend reading anything/everything by the secret barrister. stuff like this is really well explained

And of course if push came to shove and she did go to a UK jail for 8 months she wold actually serve 4 before release

didds

[Lootman]

her ridiculous and entitled (by which I mean I can, so I will) flight from the UK and claim of diplomatic immunity. Her "genuine remorse" sounds to me more like the output from a highly skilled legal team than a raw emotion. She deserves the ruin of her reputation and the guilt that I hope she genuinely feels at causing the death of a blameless young man.

Whilst it is easy to find fault with her running away, I am not sure that can be described as "ridiculous". Suppose you were involved in a deadly car accident in some foreign unfamiliar country. If the UK government came along and offered to whisk you home thereby making the whole thing go away, would you decline and tell the consular official that is "ridiculous"? I can easily imagine being very tempted by that offer versus spending months or years in a foreign prison when the same crime in the UK would probably just be a fine and some community service.

I think she cooperated as much as she reasonably could without returning to the UK. And as you suggest, her life, career and reputation have been shattered by this. I doubt that she really thinks that she totally got away with anything.

More generally I think incidents like this are best settled by civil lawsuits, insurance claims and monetary damages.

[didds]

More generally I think incidents like this are best settled by civil lawsuits, insurance claims and monetary damages.

I do tend to agreeing, but of course ultimately anything being paid for out of insurances ends up being paid for effectively by "us all" generally speaking.


The point made about an offense abroad that maybe warrants "only" a fine and some community service in the UK raises an interesting point though...

DAK what would an equivalent death at the hands of a somebody driving on the wrong side of the road, warrant in a Texas case/court? (I couldn't find out where Sacoolas lives FWTW)

[AF62]

I couldn't find out where Sacoolas lives FWTW

Near Langley, Virginia, making it an easy commute to her job with the CIA.

[didds]

I couldn't find out where Sacoolas lives FWTW

Near Langley, Virginia, making it an easy commute to her job with the CIA.

that makes sense!

DAK what would an equivalent death at the hands of a somebody driving on the wrong side of the road, warrant in a Virginian case/court?

[AF62]

I couldn't find out where Sacoolas lives FWTW

Near Langley, Virginia, making it an easy commute to her job with the CIA.

that makes sense!

DAK what would an equivalent death at the hands of a somebody driving on the wrong side of the road, warrant in a Virginian case/court?

Would that be an American who was driving or a foreigner who was driving, as I rather suspect the result might be different.

And even if it was an American, again I rather suspect there might be a difference between the sentence for Tyrone, an ordinary person who works in the local manufacturing plant, and Jane, a CIA agent with top secret clearance who runs a team of 100 covertly monitoring foreign government communications and who the American government would rather prefer was not incarcerated with common criminals and what that might result in.