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Late vacant possession on completion

including wills and probate
GoSeigen
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Re: Late vacant possession on completion

#546411

Postby GoSeigen » November 14th, 2022, 9:53 am

88V8 wrote:
Clitheroekid wrote:
88V8 wrote:Do you need a solicitor to go to the Small Claims Court? You have the contract, you can read what it says.
The Court is designed to be DIY

The OP may well be able to read the contract, but whether they will understand it or not is a different matter!
So as an interesting exercise I'd like to invite any aspiring contract lawyers to interpret the contract and advise the OP. I'll then award marks out of 10 and explain the actual rights that the OP has :)

So, for null points, the current Contract Rate is 7%, so I would apply 7% to the purchase price prorata temporis the delay.

If for example the price were £800,000 then that would be 7% pro rata from 1300h to the time at which the vendor could reasonably be said to have access for the removal men, say 0800h the next day, that's 19 hours, which works out to £121.

Hmm. Hardly worth the bother.

V8


Without thinking too hard I agree with the above and additionally that there would be a claim for actual reasonable costs and losses arising from the late completion. Assuming here that Notice to Complete has been given and there are no other unusual circumstances.

GS

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Re: Late vacant possession on completion

#546435

Postby AF62 » November 14th, 2022, 12:02 pm

Clitheroekid wrote:The relevant provisons that govern this situation are set out in condition 7.2:

7.2 Late completion
7.2.1 If there is default by either or both of the parties in performing their obligations under the contract and completion is delayed, the party whose total period of default is the greater is to pay compensation to the other party.
7.2.2 Compensation is calculated at the contract rate on an amount equal to the purchase price, less (where the buyer is the paying party) any deposit paid, for the period by which the paying party's default exceeds that of the receiving party, or, if shorter, the period between completion date and actual completion.
7.2.3 Any claim for loss resulting from delayed completion is to be reduced by any compensation paid under this contract.

So as an interesting exercise I'd like to invite any aspiring contract lawyers to interpret the contract and advise the OP. I'll then award marks out of 10 and explain the actual rights that the OP has :)


Definitely not an aspiring contract lawyer and probably aiming for zero points -

7.2.1 - both parties could be a fault for causing a delay, but the one who was worst pays compensation to the other

7.2.1 - the compensation is based on the purchase price and the length of the delay, but if the delay was less than one day (completion happened on that day albeit later than expected) then no compensation is payable.

7.2.3 - you can still sue for losses incurred from delayed completion but those will be reduced by any compensation that was paid.

The end result being that no compensation is due, but you could sue for losses if you could convince the court that the contract was certain that the agreed completion time was 1pm.

But is it worth it...

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Re: Late vacant possession on completion

#546441

Postby Dod101 » November 14th, 2022, 12:18 pm

Irrespective of all these technicalities, it would be interesting to know what the OP has actually done or may be planning to do about the issue.

Dod

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Re: Late vacant possession on completion

#546483

Postby Mike4 » November 14th, 2022, 3:00 pm

My shot in the dark at answering CK's question is completion took place on the day agreed so no compensation dues for delayed completion. The Given the money was paid my expectation is the LR will accept completion took place and register the transfer.

The tricky bit is one of the conditions of the contract was not met, and for that it might be possible to sue for compensation, but it would be nothing to do with conditions in 7.2. Therefore, CK has handed us un poisson rouge.

Never take legal advice from a plumber.

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Re: Late vacant possession on completion

#546539

Postby Neutrino » November 14th, 2022, 5:54 pm

CK may well have given us a hareng rouge. I’m not an aspiring contract lawyer, but IMO there is no breach of contract if the property is vacated before midnight on the completion date. The following are from the Standard Conditions of Sale (fifth edition)
• ‘1.1.1 ( c) completion date has the meaning given in condition 6.1.1
• ‘6.2.2 Completion is to take place in England and Wales, either at the seller’s conveyancer’s office or at some other place which the seller reasonably specifies
• ‘Special Conditions
7 Occupier’s consent: Each occupier ….. undertakes to vacate the property on or before the completion date ….

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Re: Late vacant possession on completion

#546890

Postby Clitheroekid » November 16th, 2022, 12:46 am

An interesting range of answers, some of them on the right lines, some less so!

eisman wrote:I would question whether there has actually been 'late completion' for condition 7.2 to apply.

What seems to me to have happened is that completion took place at 1pm (assuming the balance of purchase consideration was paid then) and, from that point onward, the vendors were trespassing in the buyer's property.

No, the contract is for sale with vacant possession. It's therefore the other way round from your interpretation. Completion takes place not when the money arrives in the seller's solicitors' bank, but when the seller gives vacant possession, i.e. moves out.

In this case because the seller hadn't moved out by 2:00 pm completion had not taken place by the contractual time, so the seller is treated as being in default - condition 6.1.3.

In fact, considering the contract terms were prepared by eminent property lawyers the wording is remarkably sloppy. Although it provides that if the buyer is late in delivering the money completion is treated as having taken place the next working day there's no equivalent provision where the seller is late moving out. However, in practical terms they would also be treated as having delayed completion till the next working day.

Late completion triggers condition 7.2. This says that `automatic' compensation will be calculated as being the amount of interest that has become payable as a result of the default. The interest rate is `the contract rate', and this is defined at condition 1.1.1 (e) as the rate set by the Law Society. This is 4% p.a. above Barclays' base rate, so currently 7% p.a.

Condition 7.2.2 says that where it's the seller who's at fault interest is charged on the whole of the purchase price. So if the property is selling for £1m the interest is £70k p.a. or approximately £192 per day.

If the next day is a working day then the automatic compensation is just one day's interest. However, as most completions take place on a Friday this means that the provisions are rather more severe, as completion is not deemed to be just one day but three days late, giving rise to an interest charge of about £575.

So that's your starting point. However, it's important to understand that this is not a mechanism to fix the amount of compensation payable. It's merely a starting point.

So in the OP's case assume that they had to pay the removal men £200, accommodation charges of £300, and £500 in additional legal charges, giving a total loss of £1,000. The seller is automatically obliged to pay them £192, but the OP could then sue them for the additional £808.

Such a claim should be fairly straightforward, subject to the usual arguments on reasonableness - for example taking a suite at the Dorchester at £10k a night would not normally be allowed - and in practice if the OP wanted to make a claim it would probably be dealt with informally by negotiation.

Having said all that the 2:00pm is treated as a target more than a trigger. It's very often the case that the money doesn't arrive until well after that, particularly where there's a long chain. In many cases it doesn't even arrive until the next working day, which could well be a Monday.

However, conveyancers tend to take a pragmatic view, and if one of them tells the other it's on its way they will usually treat it as having been received, and release the keys, simply to avoid their clients going through the ordeal described by the OP.

In many cases the clients won't even know that completion was technically late, or that they could theoretically claim compensation, simply because their conveyancer takes the view that they've suffered no actual loss and that there is therefore no point rocking the boat (or more likely these days because the conveyancer doesn't even know that these rights exist). Whether this is a good or bad thing I will leave for others to decide! ;)

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Re: Late vacant possession on completion

#546891

Postby mc2fool » November 16th, 2022, 1:21 am

Clitheroekid wrote:So in the OP's case assume that they had to pay the removal men £200, accommodation charges of £300, and £500 in additional legal charges, giving a total loss of £1,000. The seller is automatically obliged to pay them £192, but the OP could then sue them for the additional £808.

Such a claim should be fairly straightforward...

But how can that be done if you don't know the vendor's address? Can the vendor's solicitor be forced to tell the buyer the vendor's new address somehow? Or, alternatively, can the buyer use the vendor's solicitor as a care-of address, both for the LBA and the Money Claims service/MCOL, and does the solicitor have to pass those on? Even if they no longer have a relationship with the vendor?

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Re: Late vacant possession on completion

#546904

Postby Dod101 » November 16th, 2022, 7:18 am

And that is why I have always avoided moving on a Friday. If something goes wrong, nothing can be done until the Monday.

Dod

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Re: Late vacant possession on completion

#548444

Postby brightncheerful » November 21st, 2022, 12:12 pm

post deleted by author
Last edited by brightncheerful on November 21st, 2022, 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Late vacant possession on completion

#548445

Postby brightncheerful » November 21st, 2022, 12:13 pm

Lootman wrote:A solicitor who doesn't do litigation? I thought that was all they did!.


Increasingly for commercial property lease expiry/renewal instructions, I am finding that some solicitors do not deal with litigation. In some instances, the solicitor expects the client to find another solicitor that does; whilst others recommend a litigation specialist firm they normally use.

The common reason for not dealing with litigation is that it is very time consuming. It often is. Never mentioned but I suspect the reason is professional indemnity insurance. In my field, a date overlooked or forgotten can have horrendous consequences for negligence. Per case law, if the delay is the court's fault then no issue. if the party's *solicitor's delay then tough.

Another possibility is that the legal costs for relatively low claims - anything below about £30,000 - are disproportionately high and perhaps just perhaps the solicitor feels guilty at having to charge so much. Solicitors are required to provide an estimate of costs before embarking: on a matter I am currently acting for a landlord whose solicitor has estimated £25,000 to £50,000 for a lease renewal involving approximately £2500 pa maximum increase in rent. the tenant having made and served its claim, the landlord's only choice, short of forking out disproportionately, is either to concede at the start or concede when the case management procedure nudges disproportionate. Large companies with deep pockets are prone to using costs as a ploy for deterring private investors from pursuing claims.

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Re: Late vacant possession on completion

#548647

Postby DiamondEcho » November 21st, 2022, 9:09 pm

Mike4 wrote:My current sol does however, recommend I visit myself to check for vacant possession before they transmit the money.

How do you ensure it's truly vacant, do you go around and look in all the windows, or just go and ring the door-bell?

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Re: Late vacant possession on completion

#548717

Postby Mike4 » November 22nd, 2022, 12:07 am

DiamondEcho wrote:
Mike4 wrote:My current sol does however, recommend I visit myself to check for vacant possession before they transmit the money.

How do you ensure it's truly vacant, do you go around and look in all the windows, or just go and ring the door-bell?


Both! Plus a chat with any neighbours around.

Point being, that a personal visit to the premises is FAR more likely to reveal a failure to deliver 'vacant possession' than relying on the contract terms.

I've never caught out anyone failing to move out but OTOH, it seems a trivial thing not to do given the enormity, delay and expenses of the potential consequences.

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Re: Late vacant possession on completion

#549423

Postby Clitheroekid » November 23rd, 2022, 9:30 pm

brightncheerful wrote:Solicitors are required to provide an estimate of costs before embarking: on a matter I am currently acting for a landlord whose solicitor has estimated £25,000 to £50,000 for a lease renewal involving approximately £2500 pa maximum increase in rent. the tenant having made and served its claim, the landlord's only choice, short of forking out disproportionately, is either to concede at the start or concede when the case management procedure nudges disproportionate. Large companies with deep pockets are prone to using costs as a ploy for deterring private investors from pursuing claims.

That's frankly ridiculous, and your landlord should change their solicitor, as they're being ripped off.

A lease renewal involving such a small increase in rent would indicate that the overall rent is not gigantic, and I would not expect such a renewal (assuming there are no major changes in the new lease) to cost more than a few thousand pounds at most.

Furthermore, your client's solicitors should be employing Part 36 Offers to put severe pressure on the tenant. They are extremely effective in forcing even the most stupid and pig-headed litigants to settle.

Unfortunately, far too many solicitors who act for wealthy clients don't want the case to settle, and will deliberately avoid suggesting settlement offers in order that they can carry on milking the cow.

Where the tenant is also wealthy the problem is compounded, as there's often an unspoken agreement between the two solicitors to spin it out as long as possible, with each of them blaming the other solicitor to their respective clients. And once each side retains a barrister this situation can get even worse.

Of course, they all know that agreement will be reached half an hour before the trial is due to start, so as to remove any unpleasant element of risk from the arrangement. And armed with that agreement the solicitors and barristers will, having milked the cow for all it's worth, tell their respective clients what a great settlement they've achieved, and how it could all have gone horribly wrong if they'd let it go before a judge.

Cynical? Moi? ;)

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Re: Late vacant possession on completion

#555076

Postby brightncheerful » December 15th, 2022, 5:57 pm

Furthermore, your client's solicitors should be employing Part 36 Offers to put severe pressure on the tenant. They are extremely effective in forcing even the most stupid and pig-headed litigants to settle.


If only. The tenant is a large corporate, the landlord a small private investor with limited resources. in this case i suspect the tenant thinks the landlord is to use your words the most stupid and pig-headed - a sentiment I'd share if I weren't acting for him. :)


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