The Lemon Fool

Negotiating through an agent to rent a property and we have had the temerity to query the legalised extortion known as tenancy fees imposed by the agent.

Oh boy, all hell broke loose! Full-on abusive anger and shaming attack by the agent on the phone. "The fees are absolutely non-negotiable. We NEVER negotiate on fees. You have no business questioning them after making an offer. If you wanted to you should have negotiated before offering." LOL. Abusers don't get irony or the reality of their own abuse.

Terms have been agreed in writing, a holding deposit has been paid. "Either sign our offer form [itemising fees] or your deposit will be transferred to the landlord", we were threatened. Today threat has been carried out -- agent is again marketing the property because of the "delay" in getting the referencing moving, still holds deposit. When challenged as to how the landlord could both hold a deposit AND continue marketing the property we were introduced to the concept of "backup marketing", which apparently is acceptable.

It's all proving quite entertaining to us.

Has anyone else had the gall to challenge tenancy fees before moving in? How did you get on?


GS
P.S. Agent is member of TPO. https://www.tpos.co.uk/consumers/advice ... s/lettings

GoSeigen wrote:Negotiating through an agent to rent a property and we have had the temerity to query the legalised extortion known as tenancy fees imposed by the agent.

Hehehe! Your prospective landlord has probably been led to suppose you're being charged a small fraction of those fees. "Yes, we charge the tenant for referencing costs."

The sad fact is, many tenants are in very weak positions, and the alternative to bending over and taking abuse may be sleeping out on the streets. Many agents, particularly in urban areas, routinely exploit them. And the job of being an agent is a magnet for natural bullies.

I thought I'd escaped that, until after my move in 2013 when I found my new agent trying a range of dirty tricks (my previous agent had been good). At my ripe old age, and with sufficient funds to call their bluff, I was able to stand up to them, though it wasn't fun. My younger, more impecunious self was a victim until I fled abroad.

Anyway, good to hear you're not taking any nonsense from them. I think those of us who can afford to push back on the scum should make a point of doing so, and don't be afraid to bring in officialdom if enforcement of your rights becomes necessary.

UncleEbenezer wrote:

GoSeigen wrote:Negotiating through an agent to rent a property and we have had the temerity to query the legalised extortion known as tenancy fees imposed by the agent.

Hehehe! Your prospective landlord has probably been led to suppose you're being charged a small fraction of those fees. "Yes, we charge the tenant for referencing costs."

The sad fact is, many tenants are in very weak positions, and the alternative to bending over and taking abuse may be sleeping out on the streets. Many agents, particularly in urban areas, routinely exploit them. And the job of being an agent is a magnet for natural bullies.

I thought I'd escaped that, until after my move in 2013 when I found my new agent trying a range of dirty tricks (my previous agent had been good). At my ripe old age, and with sufficient funds to call their bluff, I was able to stand up to them, though it wasn't fun. My younger, more impecunious self was a victim until I fled abroad.

Anyway, good to hear you're not taking any nonsense from them. I think those of us who can afford to push back on the scum should make a point of doing so, and don't be afraid to bring in officialdom if enforcement of your rights becomes necessary.

Uncle, what an uplifting and supportive post! Thank you.

Yesterday a friend came to visit who has been a tenant client of this bunch of incompetents for some years and had some hair-raising tales to tell. Sadly fees at other agents round here are even more insane so will keep chipping at this one.

Interesting to see you are in a similar financial and practical position to me and had a go at challenging the agent. Do you have any tips from that experience? Did you succeed in your aims? Was there any approach you found that worked well?


GS

GoSeigen wrote:Interesting to see you are in a similar financial and practical position to me and had a go at challenging the agent. Do you have any tips from that experience? Did you succeed in your aims? Was there any approach you found that worked well?
GS

Well, I haven't actually challenged them over the fees (which weren't overly outrageous, and which weren't sprung on me after I was already committed), but over other matters. I insisted on changes to a couple of clauses in the lease that were sprung on me at the last minute. And they tried several times to change the terms of the lease retrospectively, in ways that would raise the rent and/or tie me in and generate another fee (I just had to call their bluff). And the individual who carried out inspections at first was a petty bully.

The matter on which I got officialdom involved was the condition of the garage (which I hadn't seen when I viewed the property). It's built in to the bottom of the hill, and gets lots of water from above. When a bunch of plaster fell from the ceiling, I was concerned over its safety. I reported it, they ignored me (as usual), I contacted the council, whose enforcement officer wrote to them, after which they finally had it attended to.

If I had any advice, pick your battles! If you fight them over everything, you won't have time to waste on lemonfool, or perhaps other outlets such as Life!

There was of course a Bill introduced partially concerned with agent charges re E & W, but along with quite a lot else it fell away when the election was called, now whether it gets reintroduced or becomes another casualty of Brexit, who knows.

"Summary of the Housing (Tenants' Rights) Bill 2016-17

A Bill to establish a Living Rent Commission to conduct research into, and provide proposals for, reducing rent levels in the private rented sector and improving terms and conditions for tenants; to require the Secretary of State to report the recommendations of the Commission to Parliament; to introduce measures to promote long-term tenancies; to establish a mandatory national register of ​landlords and lettings agents; to prohibit the charging of letting or management agent fees to tenants; and for connected purposes.

This Bill was expected to have its second reading debate on Friday 12 May 2017. However, as a General Election has now been called and Parliament will be dissolved from 3 May 2017, the Bill falls and no further action will be taken."

https://services.parliament.uk/bills/20 ... ights.html

Charlottesquare wrote:This Bill was expected to have its second reading debate on Friday 12 May 2017. However, as a General Election has now been called and Parliament will be dissolved from 3 May 2017, the Bill falls and no further action will be taken."

https://services.parliament.uk/bills/20 ... ights.html

Ah, did it die? That's a great shame, as I thought it was a good White Paper.



Meanwhile, our quixotic battle failed miserably.

Landlord pulled out due to our querying the fees and then dropping a note through their door, which they did not like. So, no new home for us and kids yet.

I guess we just demonstrated that the tenant has no power to question tenant fees, though we could probably identify one or two tactical errors to fix for a future encounter.



Email from agent today "for the record", expressing disappointment at our recording a conversation in their premises without her knowledge and without asking her permission, which she felt was underhand. Though probably not the best thing to have done in hindsight (well, getting caught was dumb), they take every opportunity to put you in your place.


Replied to the effect that being my own person I'd no need to ask her permission or tell her what I'm doing. "If you don't like that, tough. If I did something wrong, sue me."

Muppets.



GS

I must admit I find it strange E & W does not just get on with it, up here we have had a ban since 2012 but not sure how many people charged tenants before that anyway. My work used to let 61 residential property we owned from the mid 90s until 2015 (we do actually have one flat left) and we did not charge tenants anything re taking a lease, just deposit and first month's rent, the only time they might get a fee is if they wanted to terminate the lease early, in such an instance they paid rent until new tenant found and our agent charged them the fee we usually paid for finding a replacement, usually 50% of a month's rent plus vat.

GoSeigen wrote:If I did something wrong, sue me." Muppets. GS

If I was an letting agent I'd advise a landlord not to let to you, as from what you've described such a tenancy would promise to be a nightmare. IME even nightmare tenants pretend to be good before moving in.
Very unlikely they'll sue you of course, but quite probable they'll let other agents in the area know of their experience...

DiamondEcho wrote:

GoSeigen wrote:If I did something wrong, sue me." Muppets. GS

If I was an letting agent I'd advise a landlord not to let to you, as from what you've described such a tenancy would promise to be a nightmare. IME even nightmare tenants pretend to be good before moving in.
Very unlikely they'll sue you of course, but quite probable they'll let other agents in the area know of their experience...

Says somebody who has never met me and knows nothing about me or the situation?

Bullying agent has probably seldom had a tenant stand up to her. What would you expect me to have written back DiamondEcho? How do you respond to bullies?


Feedback from our latest tenancy lasting several years and our second with the landlord:

" you were the most amazing tenants, and we will speak to that strongly - incredibly considerate, took amazing care of the house, very proactive in terms of notifying us of any issues."

And that was written despite being upset that we had not agreed to leave our home on the date they wanted. Many landlords and agents seem to feel entitled to play around with tenants' lives with little regard for legal niceties or their tenants' wishes.

GS

DiamondEcho wrote:

GoSeigen wrote:If I did something wrong, sue me." Muppets. GS

Very unlikely they'll sue you of course, but quite probable they'll let other agents in the area know of their experience...

You'll find most, not all, but most letting agents just want whatever is on their books to be let out. Particularly if they wont be managing the property long term.

Pick up the fees, move on the next deal. They certainly wont inform a landlord what they've heard anecdotally from a competitor agent.

DiamondEcho wrote:

GoSeigen wrote:If I did something wrong, sue me." Muppets. GS

If I was an letting agent I'd advise a landlord not to let to you, as from what you've described such a tenancy would promise to be a nightmare. IME even nightmare tenants pretend to be good before moving in.
Very unlikely they'll sue you of course, but quite probable they'll let other agents in the area know of their experience...

My wife feels bullied by these people DiamondEcho. She is afraid to go into their office. She feels anxious, feels dread at the thought of speaking to them. Is that the way a business should be treating its consumer customers?

We're not talking about the Landlord-Tenant relationship here. We haven't the slightest complaint about the Landlord. We are talking about the threatening, aggressive, nasty tactics (my wife's feelings and words, not mine) used by a commercial business towards its customers. "Part of me wants to stand up to them but I don't feel like we can have a healthy dialogue with them. They are intransigent so we are at an impasse." In refusing to speak to us about our concerns we are unable to put to them where they have broken the law.

Today we have requested a meeting with the Agent's solicitor.


GS

Raptor wrote:

Moderator Message:
Can we stop personal attacks or derogatory remarks. Never thought would find this on this forum. You have all been warned. Raptor.

Raptor, is this addressed to me? Because I intended no personal attack -- I felt I was sticking up for myself without implying anything about the poster. Apologies if it didn't come across that way.

GS

GoSeigen wrote:Bullying agent has probably seldom had a tenant stand up to her. What would you expect me to have written back DiamondEcho? How do you respond to bullies?

Perhaps I misunderstand the situation. What you write suggests you put down a holding deposit. IDR the precise legal consequences of that but I suspect that means you accepted both the agents terms, and those in the tenancy agreement. But then you suggest you later tried to negotiate the agent's terms. Is my understanding correct? How do I deal with confusing and complex situations such as this? As a starting point I try and put emotion aside and focus on understanding my respective legal rights and obligations; ie whether or not I have a legitimate grievance.

DiamondEcho wrote:

GoSeigen wrote:Bullying agent has probably seldom had a tenant stand up to her. What would you expect me to have written back DiamondEcho? How do you respond to bullies?

Perhaps I misunderstand the situation. What you write suggests you put down a holding deposit. IDR the precise legal consequences of that but I suspect that means you accepted both the agents terms, and those in the tenancy agreement. But then you suggest you later tried to negotiate the agent's terms. Is my understanding correct? How do I deal with confusing and complex situations such as this? As a starting point I try and put emotion aside and focus on understanding my respective legal rights and obligations; ie whether or not I have a legitimate grievance.

I think you are indeed mistaken. We put down the holding deposit "Subject to contract" and the agent's Terms we later received also were headed "Subject to contract". Now I don't know what you understand by that but my reading is that this means no party is bound by the terms and all is negotiable until final exchange or until it is otherwise explicitly agreed by both parties that terms will become binding. Using the formulation "Subject to contract" is pretty standard in property agreements.

The agents have now implicitly confirmed their concurrence with the above by claiming to us that a contract is no longer in force, without epxlanation I hasten to add. There are three possible explanations: they no longer feel bound because it was always "subect to contract"; or there was an explicit clause about ending the contract (actually no there wasn't) ; or we have expressly released them from any obligations they might have (no we haven't).

What do you think?

And if they felt their services and fees were always "subject to contract", then how could they have argued that we were out of order for querying them, and that we were contractually obliged to pay the fees in full? Bizarrely when I asked for their invoice on Saturday for work already done they said there was nothing to pay!


I agree with working on understanding my rights (the laws are wide-ranging and it takes time) but don't think I should put all my emotions aside. I find the situation highly amusing in many ways and reserve the right to ridicule the ridiculous. These people are bungling clowns who clearly have little regard for the law, logic, propriety or honesty and integrity. Their behaviour precisely follows the pattern in typical bullying abusive relationships.


GS

DiamondEcho wrote:

GoSeigen wrote:Bullying agent has probably seldom had a tenant stand up to her. What would you expect me to have written back DiamondEcho? How do you respond to bullies?

Perhaps I misunderstand the situation. What you write suggests you put down a holding deposit. IDR the precise legal consequences of that but I suspect that means you accepted both the agents terms, and those in the tenancy agreement.

In over 30 years renting, I've tried hard many times, but the sequencing simply doesn't work like that. You don't get to see the actual tenancy agreement until after you're committed, which means you've put down the deposit to secure it and gone through referencing. Try and ask for it and you get fobbed off "we have to draw it up once we've gone through all those preliminaries". Ask for boilerplate and they're still reluctant: they need to customise it (some will, some won't give you something generic). Insist on it and they'll refuse to do business with you.

On the other hand, agents in recent times have been keen to tell me their own charges when I view a place. I think that's now a legal requirement, and I'd be strongly inclined to dispute any additional charges they dream up later.

UncleEbenezer wrote:In over 30 years renting, I've tried hard many times, but the sequencing simply doesn't work like that. You don't get to see the actual tenancy agreement until after you're committed

IANAL but, I don't believe you can be held to a contract you haven't had [roughly] sufficient time upon which to seek independent legal advice; never mind one you haven't even seen.

DiamondEcho wrote:

UncleEbenezer wrote:In over 30 years renting, I've tried hard many times, but the sequencing simply doesn't work like that. You don't get to see the actual tenancy agreement until after you're committed

IANAL but, I don't believe you can be held to a contract you haven't had [roughly] sufficient time upon which to seek independent legal advice; never mind one you haven't even seen.

Well this is absolute nonsense. One can enter a binding contract at a moment's notice.

It would be nice if you retracted your original unwarranted negative personal comments about me, and even better with a vaguely genuine apology.

GS

DiamondEcho wrote:IANAL but, I don't believe you can be held to a contract you haven't had [roughly] sufficient time upon which to seek independent legal advice; never mind one you haven't even seen.

Irrelevant. You sign the tenancy on first sight and under pressure[1], or you don't get the tenancy and end up in the kind of position that gave rise to this thread.

[1] Not just the pressure of the moment, but also circumstances like having made arrangements to move and given (or been served) notice to vacate your previous home.

UncleEbenezer wrote:Irrelevant. You sign the tenancy on first sight and under pressure[1], or you don't get the tenancy and end up in the kind of position that gave rise to this thread.
[1] Not just the pressure of the moment, but also circumstances like having made arrangements to move and given (or been served) notice to vacate your previous home.

Maybe that is your experience. My experience via the letting agent I use is that the agent's T+Cs suggest that tenant's/landlords etc before signing any contract, that if they are at all unclear on any of the terms, they seek professional legal guidance beforehand.