The Lemon Fool

I have a bunch of crypto, all funded back when banks did not play mother with how risky they might be. Since then I have bought all my crypto and run out of good old GBP in my crypto accounts to convert into coin and now with recent dips was thinking of selling some share gainers outwit my ISAs and putting some more cash into Crypto.

But neither of my current account, with Lloyds and Santander, will now allow me to send any funds to the nasty Binance or Coinbase.

Can anyone suggest a current account i could get which would still allow me to take risks with my own money?

seekingbalance wrote:I have a bunch of crypto, all funded back when banks did not play mother with how risky they might be. Since then I have bought all my crypto and run out of good old GBP in my crypto accounts to convert into coin and now with recent dips was thinking of selling some share gainers outwit my ISAs and putting some more cash into Crypto.

But neither of my current account, with Lloyds and Santander, will now allow me to send any funds to the nasty Binance or Coinbase.

Can anyone suggest a current account i could get which would still allow me to take risks with my own money?

Here's a great idea: cryptocurrencies were designed to be impervious to bank control. How about just sending your money to Binance/Coinbase in a cryptocurrency? Should be a piece of cake by now.

Or pay it in using a crypto debit card.

Good luck.

GS

I'm interested in any answers from people with more experiance than me.

My main bank is Santander and I have bought a small amount of crypto with Paypal, funded from my current account. However they act as custodians. I'm just starting my crypto journey.

Of course many exchanges will accept crypto, but the OP wants to use his bank current account to fund the exchange with fiat.

I suspect that there would be less problems funding a Gemini account from a UK bank given how that exchange is regulated.

However arguably it's the WRONG solution. If a bank doesn't offer the service that you want, then you should look for a different bank.
I did a google and found this article.
https://cryptobuyersclub.co.uk/faqs/whi ... currencies

The challenger banks look interesting. I'm tempted to open an account with one. Like the OP, I currently have more than one current account and accounts with more than one bank.

Thanks Urbandreamer - yes, you did read my OP correctly. My banks won't let me buy crypto.

Therefore - for others who may not have got it - I can't send any money to Binance or Coinbase, nor can I send money to another Crypto company to set up a crypto debit card! Nor can I send money from my other crypto accounts without normal fiat onramps (that's why you need Binance, Coinbase, Crypto.com, or indeed gemini or FTX) if I don't want to sell any of my crypto! I have plenty of value in these accounts (700% profit in fact) but i want to add extra POUNDS.

I'll check out the link you posted, Urbandreamer.

Hmm, so I am going to check out NURI (assuming ing Santander allow me to transfer money to them!) but also Co-Op and RBS.

NURI looks interesting for other benefits.

It is interesting that the article Urbandreamer linked to suggests Santander are mixed in their approach. This may suggest they will be okay with Gemini (they for sure don't allow Binance who are my preferred Gateway due to their massively lower charges than Coinbase).

seekingbalance wrote:Thanks Urbandreamer - yes, you did read my OP correctly. My banks won't let me buy crypto.

Therefore - for others who may not have got it - I can't send any money to Binance or Coinbase, nor can I send money to another Crypto company to set up a crypto debit card! Nor can I send money from my other crypto accounts without normal fiat onramps (that's why you need Binance, Coinbase, Crypto.com, or indeed gemini or FTX) if I don't want to sell any of my crypto! I have plenty of value in these accounts (700% profit in fact) but i want to add extra POUNDS.

I'll check out the link you posted, Urbandreamer.

We've got it, I think you haven't got it. Cryptocurrencies are predicated on a brave new world where users of crypto can simply bypass banks and governments. If it turns out that is so not the case that you cannot do the simplest transactions then why are you investing in the toilet paper in the first place? Aren't loud alarm bells ringing and red flags waving?

GS

GoSeigen wrote:We've got it, I think you haven't got it. Cryptocurrencies are predicated on a brave new world where users of crypto can simply bypass banks and governments. If it turns out that is so not the case that you cannot do the simplest transactions then why are you investing in the toilet paper in the first place? Aren't loud alarm bells ringing and red flags waving?

GS

The fact that Lloyds won't offer a service is a reflection on Lloyds. The OP is seeking a banking alternative to Lloyds and Santander, NOT to avoid banks. I thought that they were clear on that. Just as they were clear that they wanted to exchange pounds for crypto.

Bypass banks? Most people need to receive "money" in order to buy the food that they need to live. You can buy pizza with bitcoin, but most employers and the government don't pay in crypto. They don't even pay in toilet paper, sorry £10 notes. They pay electronically to a bank, unless you know differently.
Of course not everyone can then spend the money in a bank or even pay tax with it.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/exp ... money.html

If you follow the link, the money in the account came from government savings and in part was to be used for paying council tax. NOTHING to do with crypto. EVERYTHING to do with banking.

Those of us who are both sensible and know that such things can happen seek alternatives. Traditionally it has been gold coin's, jewellery, currency notes under the mattress etc. Crypto is becoming part of that. We also bank with more than one institution and have both VISA and Mastercard as one may be refused (Mastercard often is in Germany, while Amazon.uk refuses VISA).

As the OP has found, his banks won't deal with the companies that he wants to deal with. Fortunately it's as simple as finding a different bank. Why not have one that you use for charitable gifts, another that your income is paid into, another for household expenses, another for online and crypto purchases. That's what I do.

Ps, back to the original subject, apparently you can fund a binance account from Paypal if you already have a Paypal account.

Urbandreamer wrote:Ps, back to the original subject, apparently you can fund a binance account from Paypal if you already have a Paypal account.

Here's an article from a respected tech author walking us through the process of buying Bitcoin via PayPal - and the hurdles he encountered:

https://www.zdnet.com/article/i-bought- ... -happened/

HTH,

Watis

Urbandreamer wrote:Those of us who are both sensible and know that such things can happen seek alternatives. Traditionally it has been gold coin's, jewellery, currency notes under the mattress etc. Crypto is becoming part of that.

There was a geezer on the radio before Xmas going on about how "going bankless" is now a thing amongst the bright sparkly young things nowadays, and crypto seems to be a big part of this. He mentioned a website about it which I naturally ignored being an old person, but a brief google for "go bankless" threw up this, which looks at first sight like it might help the OP. I haven't read it yet, but I might, as I find 'going bankless' an intriguing concept.

https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/about

"Go Bankless.
There’s a revolution in the world of money. Ethereum, Bitcoin, crypto, open finance, DeFi—a bankless revolution. And you want part of it.

But how do you get started?

How do you get better?

How do you front-run the opportunity?

You need a guide. A helper. An opinion. A companion for the journey.

You need to go Bankless."

Watis wrote:

Urbandreamer wrote:Ps, back to the original subject, apparently you can fund a binance account from Paypal if you already have a Paypal account.

Here's an article from a respected tech author walking us through the process of buying Bitcoin via PayPal - and the hurdles he encountered:

https://www.zdnet.com/article/i-bought- ... -happened/

HTH,

Watis

Sadly the article doesn't cover what you quoted. It's about buying bitcoin with Paypal. Yes you do need to comply with identity checks. I suspect that since the money laundering regulations of the 90's you are going to have to do that with any regulated financial institution. Indeed I believe that you need to with binance or Gemini.

Yes there is a cost. Are there cheaper ways, well possibly.

FWIW, my first trade cost me £51.15 for £50 worth and the bitcoin is now worth £33.86 I found the process easy and am happy that I bought at or near the recent highs. It's a learning process and I expect learning to cost me. It's not how I would invest were I looking to invest thousands though. The issue is that you can't transfer the bitcoin anywhere else. You can only convert it back to £'s and spend them.

Hence the interest in funding an account with a proper crypto exchange.

Watis wrote:

Urbandreamer wrote:Ps, back to the original subject, apparently you can fund a binance account from Paypal if you already have a Paypal account.

Here's an article from a respected tech author walking us through the process of buying Bitcoin via PayPal - and the hurdles he encountered:

https://www.zdnet.com/article/i-bought- ... -happened/

HTH,

Watis

LOL, he didn't even buy bitcoin. He bought a bitcoin derivative. His transaction isn't entered in the vaunted blockchain. There is no anonymity. He is effectively still using a bank/broker/bucketshop called Paypal.

ALSO, he didn't discuss the cost of a round trip. Let's say he sold his "BTC" when the buy price was the same as when he purchased. What percentage of his $51.15 would he get back? Okay, so $50 is a small amount, but he isn't even working with real bitcoin here, just a derivative which he cannot even use to pay for stuff. And this thing was supposed to get around high bank fees!

But then Paypal is a rather tin-pot business...


GS

GoSeigen wrote:But then Paypal is a rather tin-pot business...

It's my preferred online payment method, but I've never used it for more than four figures.

Was in Natwest yesterday making a CHAPS payment, nanny asked me if it was for crypto or gold.
I didn't pursue the implication that I wouldn't be allowed to buy gold, but for sure not crypto.

V8

88V8 wrote:

GoSeigen wrote:But then Paypal is a rather tin-pot business...

It's my preferred online payment method, but I've never used it for more than four figures.

Was in Natwest yesterday making a CHAPS payment, nanny asked me if it was for crypto or gold.

I didn't pursue the implication that I wouldn't be allowed to buy gold, but for sure not crypto.

Yes and in fact Paypal IS my online banking account, to the point where I don't use my bank's own online system.

But like you I do a lot of business at NatWest in person at the branch. I have never been asked that nanny question, although I have been asked others that are just as pointless and invasive.

GoSeigen wrote:LOL, he didn't even buy bitcoin. He bought a bitcoin derivative. His transaction isn't entered in the vaunted blockchain. There is no anonymity. He is effectively still using a bank/broker/bucketshop called Paypal.

ALSO, he didn't discuss the cost of a round trip. Let's say he sold his "BTC" when the buy price was the same as when he purchased.
GS

While you may claim that... I can't possibly prove or disprove your statement. Paypal claim to purchase the bitcoin and I suspect that they would need a different license in order to deal with derivatives, but you are obviously the man to know the facts.

I am NOT recommending Paypal for bitcoin derivatives. I think eTorro do that.

I know of no company who doesn't publish their fees. I suggest that if you are indeed interested in trading bitcoin on Paypal that you look their fees up.
Just as you would if you were planning on using a bank or stock broker. While you are at it, why not compare their fees to Revolut, binance and Gemini. Oh, that's right, you are not interested in owning crypto, wouldn't pay to do so, hence have no interest in the costs. Others who actually are, would check the costs among other things.

Reminder to self: don't feed the......

GoSeigen wrote:

Watis wrote:

Urbandreamer wrote:Ps, back to the original subject, apparently you can fund a binance account from Paypal if you already have a Paypal account.

Here's an article from a respected tech author walking us through the process of buying Bitcoin via PayPal - and the hurdles he encountered:

https://www.zdnet.com/article/i-bought- ... -happened/

HTH,

Watis

LOL, he didn't even buy bitcoin. He bought a bitcoin derivative. His transaction isn't entered in the vaunted blockchain. There is no anonymity. He is effectively still using a bank/broker/bucketshop called Paypal.

ALSO, he didn't discuss the cost of a round trip. Let's say he sold his "BTC" when the buy price was the same as when he purchased. What percentage of his $51.15 would he get back? Okay, so $50 is a small amount, but he isn't even working with real bitcoin here, just a derivative which he cannot even use to pay for stuff. And this thing was supposed to get around high bank fees!

But then Paypal is a rather tin-pot business...


GS

Thank you for your reply, GS.

How are you able to tell that he bought a derivative, rather than Bitcoin itself? The screenshots in the article suggest that he is buying Bitcoin so my assumption was that PayPal is acting as the buyer's Bitcoin wallet.

And, if you can buy a Bitcoin derivative, where's the scarcity that gives Bitcoin its value?

Watis

Watis wrote:

GoSeigen wrote:

Watis wrote:

Urbandreamer wrote:Ps, back to the original subject, apparently you can fund a binance account from Paypal if you already have a Paypal account.

Here's an article from a respected tech author walking us through the process of buying Bitcoin via PayPal - and the hurdles he encountered:

https://www.zdnet.com/article/i-bought- ... -happened/

HTH,

Watis

LOL, he didn't even buy bitcoin. He bought a bitcoin derivative. His transaction isn't entered in the vaunted blockchain. There is no anonymity. He is effectively still using a bank/broker/bucketshop called Paypal.

ALSO, he didn't discuss the cost of a round trip. Let's say he sold his "BTC" when the buy price was the same as when he purchased. What percentage of his $51.15 would he get back? Okay, so $50 is a small amount, but he isn't even working with real bitcoin here, just a derivative which he cannot even use to pay for stuff. And this thing was supposed to get around high bank fees!

But then Paypal is a rather tin-pot business...


GS

Thank you for your reply, GS.

How are you able to tell that he bought a derivative, rather than Bitcoin itself? The screenshots in the article suggest that he is buying Bitcoin so my assumption was that PayPal is acting as the buyer's Bitcoin wallet.

And, if you can buy a Bitcoin derivative, where's the scarcity that gives Bitcoin its value?

Watis

Essentially I used my skill and experience! However, most of the Bitcoin market is derivatives not actual bitcoin. Only 200,000 bitcoin transactions per day are possible, so it will never be a "currency" that people can use casually. The only alternative is to make everything a derivative of bitcoin and have institutions hedge their risk using other derivatives or, if sensible, using low frequency, large value transactions on the blockchain. You can come to your own conclusions as to what will happen to liquidity if there is a negative "event"!!

To satisfy yourself though, you could try googling "paypal bitcoin derivative" or read the Ts&Cs yourself. Summary: all Paypal's bitcoin custody and trading is handled by a service provider called Paxos Trust Company, LLC, Paypal is just their window to the world. Here is an extract detailing the nature of your holding under Paypal:

PayPal combines your Crypto Asset balance with the Crypto Asset balances of other PayPal accountholders and holds those Crypto Assets in an omnibus account through our custodial Service Provider. We keep a record of your interest in that omnibus account based on the amount of each type of Crypto Asset that is reflected in your balance. You do not own any specific, identifiable, Crypto Asset. These Crypto Assets are held apart from PayPal's corporate assets and PayPal will neither use these assets for its operating expenses or any other corporate or business purposes, nor will it voluntarily make these Crypto Assets available to its creditors in the event of bankruptcy.

There is no scarcity to crypto assets, just an excess of people chasing them at the moment.


GS

Watis wrote:And, if you can buy a Bitcoin derivative, where's the scarcity that gives Bitcoin its value?

Watis

To be fair, they do exist. A spread bet on the price of bitcoin is a derivative as is a CFD (contract for the difference in price). If you can bet on rain running down a window or agree to buy future olives or time with olive presses* you can do the like with Bitcoin.

There is NO fractional reserve banking with bitcoin. NO monitory policy to inflate (note that is Bitcoin specific, but you did say Bitcoin). Others have argued that Bitcoin is like a commodity. Anyone think that gold derivatives change it's value rather than it's price?

Even GS now accepts that a company holds the Bitcoin bought for me by Paypal.

As yet there is only so much of either gold or bitcoin. Indeed, it could be argued that we know the limits of Bitcoin.

As for "transactions", GS seems not to know of the lightning network. Bitcoin is held in nodes and accounts transfer notional bitcoin at little cost between their accounts. At some point the blockchain is updated with the changes. This is how the system works in El Salvador though it is worldwide. How would anyone pay for their coffee if it took 10 minutes for the transaction? Journalists will likely call these Bitcoin transactions, because they are denominated and resolve eventually to Bitcoin transactions. Just as they would call my shop tonight a transaction in £'s despite the fact that all I did was flash a credit card. YES, the difference is that I didn't actually pay at all. I simply agreed to pay. OH the wonders of credit and fractional reserve banking.

*Thales
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thales_of ... type_trade
" Aristotle explain that Thales had reserved presses in advance, at a discount, and could rent them out at a high price when demand peaked"

GoSeigen wrote:Only 200,000 bitcoin transactions per day are possible, so it will never be a "currency" that people can use casually.

Are you absolutely sure about that?

https://www.blockchain.com/charts/n-transactions

Chris
[Edit: Maybe this is not just Bitcoin though - I don't pretend to understand it.]

csearle wrote:

GoSeigen wrote:Only 200,000 bitcoin transactions per day are possible, so it will never be a "currency" that people can use casually.

Are you absolutely sure about that?

https://www.blockchain.com/charts/n-transactions

Chris
[Edit: Maybe this is not just Bitcoin though - I don't pretend to understand it.]

Sorry, not literally 200,000 that was a ball-park number from poor memory. It could be 350,000 or 335,728 but it's an incredibly low number making it all but useless as an alternative to existing forms of payment without the introduction of derivative bank-like custody and clearing systems such as Paypal's.

Well done for the fact-checking though, nice that people are actually thinking about these things and calling out something suspect...


GS

GoSeigen wrote:

seekingbalance wrote:Thanks Urbandreamer - yes, you did read my OP correctly. My banks won't let me buy crypto.

Therefore - for others who may not have got it - I can't send any money to Binance or Coinbase, nor can I send money to another Crypto company to set up a crypto debit card! Nor can I send money from my other crypto accounts without normal fiat onramps (that's why you need Binance, Coinbase, Crypto.com, or indeed gemini or FTX) if I don't want to sell any of my crypto! I have plenty of value in these accounts (700% profit in fact) but i want to add extra POUNDS.

I'll check out the link you posted, Urbandreamer.

We've got it, I think you haven't got it. Cryptocurrencies are predicated on a brave new world where users of crypto can simply bypass banks and governments. If it turns out that is so not the case that you cannot do the simplest transactions then why are you investing in the toilet paper in the first place? Aren't loud alarm bells ringing and red flags waving?

GS

Can you just remind me of the last time you bought something with one of your shares? like going into a shop and buying some stuff with some BHP shares, some Astra Zeneca shares?

Yeah, thought not.

I hold these "shares" ie Crypto assets in my crypto accounts as long term investments. I don't want to pull any cash out (though I can in fact do that) and I don't want to sell any of my positions. I don't want to buy anything with them, I don't want do any transaction other than to buy some more, for which I need to send money to be converted either directly or via a stable coin when there is no Pound/x crypto direct pair. If I had a bunch of "spare" crypto in these accounts that I wanted to use to buy anything else with, or indeed convert into Pounds to either cash out or to buy with, I can do that. I can also send any of these cryptos to another exchange, including those brave new world types of exchanges you so deride. But that is not what I am looking to do.

I know you have an opinion on everything and I usually prefer to not even answer your posts, but please, do not criticise the inability to do a thing when that thing was not bought for the purpose for which you are criticising it for not being able to do.